Air Flap Mod./ lose power?

I was at my local dealer today and I was told that the air flap gives you your low end torque and he seemed to believe that I would be losing power by making this modification? Anybody have any input or proof to this before I do the mod?

Your local dealer is a retard , you can tell him I said that.

yep
too many dyno sheets posted across the web showing nothing but gains

heres a link because i am feeling generous

http://hooliganbiketech.dynup.net/hondacbr1000rrweb/1000RR_frameindex.htm
then click on easy flapper mod

back to back dyno runs with the only difference being the flapper is on and off

with the flapper off he picked up 3 hp and 3 ft/lbs

quote:

ORIGINAL: MgA_ODEN

Your local dealer is a retard , you can tell him I said that.

+1

In this case why don't you be the judge !! reach in your fairing pull the vacuum line and stick a bolt in it!! Take her out and give er a rip down the street if you don't like it plug the line back in !! easiest mod ever and adds a nice tone

I've seen this before and it could be true if the intire air box and intake track changed with the flapper. You can't close off one end and increase velosity as they say in the advertisement.

quote:

ORIGINAL: GEARHEAD69

In this case why don't you be the judge !! reach in your fairing pull the vacuum line and stick a bolt in it!! Take her out and give er a rip down the street if you don't like it plug the line back in !! easiest mod ever and adds a nice tone

+1 I did the flapper mod about 2 weeks ago. Can't say that I feel an increase in HP (my butt dyno is not that sensitive), but def can't feel a decrease either. Plus, as stated, it does add a nice tone.

I had my bike for like 6,000 miles before I found out about this mod and Wow was I stoked after it was done !! Really seems like the mod is most noticable during throttle rolls in the lower rpm range say 4th gear @ 2500 rpm open her up and "GROWL" OH YEAH !!!!! Wished I would have heard about this one sooner!! Dude you can't go wrong best 5 minutes you've ever spent!!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thack

I've seen this before and it could be true if the intire air box and intake track changed with the flapper. You can't close off one end and increase velosity as they say in the advertisement.

the snorkle does change
at low rpms
very small doors are open allowing air in
at high rpms
flap opens and the entire snorkle is free
when you unhook the disable the flapper the snorkle is always open

www.rogueracing.org has some detailed pics of the intake track with the flap open and closed

I had this exact issue upon implementing nthe flapper mod. Lost low end torque. Put it back, and the front wheel is light.
Sure , it may get more power at a higher rpm, loss of torque for me.

did you lose the low end torque on a real dyno or a butt dyno
with the gain only about 3 ft/lbs
you arent going to feel it + or -

baxsom:

At the URL you provided above, the guy had ALSO modified the Pair. I believe that is the EPA stuff that are on some bikes. In that case, the dyno is not compared to a 100% stock bike. It sounds logical that removing the EPA junk would help performance, but it does not according to http://www.rogueracing.org/pair.htm . So, I think it would be more accurate to see a dyno that shows the difference between 100% stock verses 100% stock minus Flapper. In addition, other mods on peoples bike such as exhaust mods may not be working positively with the Flapper mods.

The ECU's on these bikes are optimized for the stock condition. So, multiple mods may actually work against each other if the ECU is not properly adjusted after doing all the mods.

quote:

the snorkle does change
at low rpms
very small doors are open allowing air in
at high rpms
flap opens and the entire snorkle is free
when you unhook the disable the flapper the snorkle is always open

I guess my point is in the avertisments and dealer info this flapper closes off to increase intake velosity thus increasing bottom end torque. I'm saying this is not true, you cannot increase velosity by just closing off one end of the airbox. Other things would have to happen at the same time for velosity to change kinda like the new Yamaha R1.

quote:

ORIGINAL: 2wheels



At the URL you provided above, the guy had ALSO modified the Pair. I believe that is the EPA stuff that are on some bikes. In that case, the dyno is not compared to a 100% stock bike.

Have you ever had your bike on a dyno?
The first thing you have to do is clamp off the PAIR valve so you can get a correct A/F reading.
That being said , in this case, the dyno is being compared to a 100% stock bike.

quote:

ORIGINAL: 2wheels

baxsom:

At the URL you provided above, the guy had ALSO modified the Pair. I believe that is the EPA stuff that are on some bikes. In that case, the dyno is not compared to a 100% stock bike. It sounds logical that removing the EPA junk would help performance, but it does not according to http://www.rogueracing.org/pair.htm . So, I think it would be more accurate to see a dyno that shows the difference between 100% stock verses 100% stock minus Flapper. In addition, other mods on peoples bike such as exhaust mods may not be working positively with the Flapper mods.

The ECU's on these bikes are optimized for the stock condition. So, multiple mods may actually work against each other if the ECU is not properly adjusted after doing all the mods.

the pair has no effect whatsoever on torque and horsepower on a dyno because if the pair is not removed the dyno operator will clamp it off
(or at elast he is supposed to)
this means that it should give the same reading as a bike with the pair removed

besides all the pair does is put fresh o2 into the exhaust gas after it has went through the engine
even if the pair is working the only negative impact is that it will throw off an AF reading if the operator doesnt clamp the hose

as far as the ecu goes
if you dont remap with a PC3 every mod will work against the performance in some fashion

this is why a custom map should always be the last thing you do once the engine mods are complele otherwise you must remap to the tune of 200-250 every time you make a change
flapper. air filter, intake, htev, pipe, internal worl

any change will affect how your bike runs

now i didnt dyno my bike before the flapper to get a change but i do know this
of the literal thousands of posts on the flapper mod between this site and 1000rr.net
99.9 % of them are postive

reference for the lazy

did flapper, gained low end torque
http://www.1000rr.net/vb/showthread.php?t=17139&highlight=flapper+low+torque


11 pages of how great the flapper is by the ultimate 1000RR guru himself LordDuckHunter
http://www.1000rr.net/vb/showthread.php?t=1038&highlight=flapper+low+torque

last one they are all starting to say the same thing
http://www.1000rr.net/vb/showthread.php?t=11798&highlight=flapper+loss

I asked a friend who is a Honda tec about the flapper and was told it is used to presurise the airbox at higher RPMs causing a ram air afffect. Was also told the mod would only help a small amount on accelertion.

MgA_ODEN:

Obviously, I have never had my bike on a dyno. Having said that. If the Pair has to be bypassed to do a dyno, then how can anybody really know how the Pair affects performance? I have heard, as someone else has indicated, that the Pair does not help or hurt engine performance. I'd like to know how we can know this if it's not possible to test the bike with the Pair fully functioning?

quote:

ORIGINAL: 2wheels

how can anybody really know how the Pair affects performance?

The PAIR system introduces filtered air into the exhaust ports to burn any unburned exhaust gases. Introducing air into a hot exhaust with fuel vapor will ignite this leftover fuel vapor turning it into CO2 and water vapor. According to Honda this greatly reduces the amount of environmentally harmful emissions coming from the 1000RR's exhaust. The PAIR system has ZERO affect on performance.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MgA_ODEN

quote:

ORIGINAL: 2wheels

how can anybody really know how the Pair affects performance?

The PAIR system introduces filtered air into the exhaust ports to burn any unburned exhaust gases. Introducing air into a hot exhaust with fuel vapor will ignite this leftover fuel vapor turning it into CO2 and water vapor. According to Honda this greatly reduces the amount of environmentally harmful emissions coming from the 1000RR's exhaust. The PAIR system has ZERO affect on performance.

quote:

The PAIR system introduces filtered air into the exhaust ports to burn any unburned exhaust gases. Introducing air into a hot exhaust with fuel vapor will ignite this leftover fuel vapor turning it into CO2 and water vapor.

This sounds somewhat like an afterburner in a jet engine. On a jet engine, additional fuel is intentionally introduced AFTER the combustion chamber to produce extra thrust out of the exhaust. I know, on a bike it's just more air to burn fuel residue, but nevertheless, there's more burning involved which means more combustion. As far as I can tell, whenever there is combustion, there is a pressure change in the system. Now, we all know a bike's performance is related to the amount of flow in the exhaust system. Hence, getting rid of the muffler increases performance. It also increases loudness, but that's just a byproduct.

I am not trying to be disagreeable here, but I have a difficult time believing that a "combustion" in the exhaust system has "zero affect" on performance. It is a thermodynamic fact in analyzing engine performances that temperatures and pressures at exhausts affect engine performance. More burning simply means more temperature. More combustion means pressure change. To my amazement, a guy actually wrapped his headers (i.e. exhaust system) http://www.rogueracing.org/satoexhaust.htm to improve performance on his CBR. From an engineering perspective, that wrapping business is a technically sound approach to affecting engine performance. Notice, the guy had to perform custom mapping.

Sure, the effects of Pair Mod may not be noticeable in some situations, but in combination with other mods, that effect may become more pronounce.

Your trying to over think things , and me trying to explain things to you is apparently waising my time.

Next.

If you read the begining of the 4th paragraph under "dyno runs" @ Hooligan bike tech you will see that the first thing they did after running the bike bone stock was clamp off the pair valve. He states that "the bike gained 1.3 hp and 1ft lb of tq" Maby because it's robbing air from the engine, maby because combustion in the exaust port. I don't know why, but is was proven on a dyno.http://hooliganbiketech.dynup.net/hondacbr1000rrweb/1000RR_frameindex.htm

1 hp on a dyno is the difference in a few degrees in tire temp
as tires get hotter they gain psi
higher psi on a rear tire will cause a hp increase to be read

bornluckee13:

I checked out the URL you provided about the "Dyno Runs". This is amazing because MgA_ODEN and others on this thread seem to think that you had to disconnect the Pair in order to properly do a dyno run. Never having done a dyno run myself, I just took their word for it. I guess they didn't have the whole story afterall.

In any case, thanks for the link. It clears up a lot of smoke. The results make a lot of sense. If anything, I figured the removal of the Pair system would increase performance. I mean, how can you argue with actual test runs. Although, I would guess some may still have few words to add.