breaking in a turn

Goin around a curve and meet this kid in a S-10 completely on my side of the road. I was going between 40-50mph. Still a newbie, so I don't ride hard. Still don't understand how you can lean the bike over in a turn and it not fall down!!HaHa!! But my question is, how much brake can you apply safely while cornering?? I used the rear brake just enough to give him some room and buy a little time. Should you use front, rear, front & rear, or what ever feels right at the time?

For a newbie i`d recomend trying to get used to doing all your braking before the turn, then gently power through the corner. This way the bikes geometry isn`t unsettled and you`ll find you can get used to setting a line you want and holding it. If you need to brake like what you mentioned i`d use back brake first progresiveley, but the more you brake the more the bike will stand upright.

I say this because if your lent over and use the front 1st you risk losing the front and sliding along on your ass. But at 40-50 mph don`t forget that moving round an object is still an option, sportsbikes are alot more movable than most people think. Consider racers standing there bike up to avoid another coming up the inside.

But most of all i`d say, get used to the way your bike feels during acceleration and under braking. Then you`ll be able to judge what you can and can`t get away with.

A lot of it falls to the level of braking pressure as well. We trail brake on the racetrack and it's a skill that also works well to tighten your line on the street, but to learn it is a bit tricky. Basically you CAN apply front brakes in a corner but we're talking about 5-8% only, more like "dragging" the brakes slightly since as Anubis stated if you overdo it, you pop upright.

Trail braking IS NOT using the rear brake. The term "trail" and "rear" have nothing in common in this instance. The fact that car racers talk about "trailing the brakes" into a turn has no relevance to motorcycles.

Trail braking is lightly dragging the front brake to keep the front end loaded slightly and the forks compressed. With most steering head rake set to about 23-24 degrees, as you compress forks you reduce the amount of trail and in essence shorten the bike's wheelbase.

We all know that short wheelbase bikes turn faster and easier but lack stability at high speed. Conversely, long wheelbase bikes make great drag bikes but suck at cornering. So by simply decreasing the wheelbase by several millimeters the bike will turn in quicker.

THIS HAS NOTHING to do with the "countersteering vs. body steering" debate. I have heard some uninformed people try to write off trail braking as a gimmick, yet Freddie Spencer can back up every thing he says with proven results. The bottom line is that a shorter wheelbase bike WILL in fact countersteer quicker. And we have seen a lot of people who brake only while upright struggle and fight to turn a bike in. Why? Because if you have the front compressed hard under heavy braking, and you come off the brakes quickly, the front is going to rebound quickly, and you can even INCREASE trail (lengthen wheelbase) and have your front end geometry out of whack at that point which makes the bike feel like it wants to run wide. Also, THIS can make you more prone to tucking the front as you have a sudden change (loss) of contact patch as you are trying to suddenly increase axial (cornering) demand if you try to "quick flick" the bike into the turn.

Some people seem to think that having the front loaded slightly means you have a higher chance of tucking the front. Perhaps...but you're not going to trail brake in off camber turns, on really dirty public roads, or hard downhill turns where the front is already heavily loaded. But a SLIGHT front load will increase the front tire's contact patch AND allow you to carry a higher corner entry speed since you are decelerating all the way to the apex, at which time you make a SMOOTH transition to throttle thus not unsettling the front/rear weight bias.

Learning to trail brake on the street is a very valuable skill. Not only do you finally understand that you CAN touch the front brakes while leaned over in a corner (to tighten your line if needed) but the bike actually does NOT have to stand up and run off the road just because you applied the front brakes. You can develop this skill to give you a LOT of confidence and control even when leaned over pretty far. In this shot, I'm trail braking fairly aggressively coming into T9 at Thunderhill:



Is there a limit to trail braking? Sure. You're perhaps more likely to tuck the front if you have too much front end load. But compared to the guy who brakes while upright and then tries to "throttle through the corner" you have a MUCH lower chance of losing the rear wheel and potentially high-siding. I tucked the front at Pahrump in June while trailing very deep into T1. But I know why it happened and I walked away without injury. Near 100 deg temps, super soft front race tire, trailing a bit too hard (front loaded to max) and then I crossed a pavement seam.

I recall Freddie telling a story of how KR and Barry Sheene would try to take him on the outside as he'd trail (since he'd actually be slightly slower at the apex) but then he was more upright and co

Very nice explanation.

Todd, spot on...excellent info. Great explanation.

Very advanced and informative reply CalSportbike!

However, the scenario he described was a total panic situation, that sounds like he got out of by the skin of his newbie teeth! In situations like that a rider isn't going to be thinking about "trail braking" or tightening up a turn for the best line and optimal exit. It's pretty much a save your ass situation." I recommend going to a parking lot (preferably where the police wont get called) and practice panic braking. I use to do this every Sunday in a community college parking lot until my third baby arrived and I don't have time any more, but it's a good place to hone your skills, just check the surface for holes, grease spills and debris (even those painted lines can be dangerous) before you start slamming on the brakes!

Although what CalSportbike describes is a great technique and can be applied to the street, it's in a different area than panic braking.

PS, I'm one of those riders that uses the voodoo rear brake at the track to tighten up a turn also...

Oh certainly...I started with answering up to talk about braking pressure when cornering and then it just rolled into something longer....

Trail braking is a skill that should be developed carefully (tiptoe up to the edge of this skill...don't jump over the edge). The point I was intending to make in my tortured and roundabout way was that when riders learns more about confidently braking in corners, they tend to have fewer "panic braking" moments on the street.

I agree with that -- the more you prepare for the situation the less likely you'll have the situation. A lot of things happen now that used to scare the crap outta me (car in my lane around a curve) but just piss me off now.

And I practice the voodoo you do too! Rear brake is just the thang before the curve to scrub off a bit of excess speed -- keeps from loading my front end early. But as with anything it can be abused -- there's been more than 1 curve where I locked the rear on approach and had to do an unglamorous, ugly trip through the grass

Thanks for the replys!!
Cal, sounds like good info just WAY over my newbie head. HaHa!
Fret, I have been practicing the braking. It takes a fair amount of pressure to lock the rear up and I have played with it more in turns just to see how the bike reacts then the front. Guess that's why i went for it first. Good thing is I kept a cool head and not panic, bad thing is I really didn't know what to do with the cool head!! I guess it will come with experience??

shit...i lock up the rear for fun sometimes. it doesn't seem to take that much when the tires are cool. I think it's kinda fun. Although when i first started ridin street a garbage truck took that all too ugly illegal u turn and i got the bike totally sideways...when i pulled it back i wondered how a newbie like me pulled it off. later i learned that it was the way my buell(sold it)was built. the PERFECT newbie bike. i learned a hell of alot on that bike for my first 3 months of daily riding. of course my friend gave me his ducatti 900 supersport to ride for a month(he wanted me to buy it). it was all over after that. my life has never been the same. that hunger for speed has never been quenched. it's still only been two years, but when you ride every day...like i'm sure alot of you do...you can learn alot dealing with those real life situations. i think anubis said it best. at first i use to brake and think i had to deal with these idiots. than i realized how nimble my bike really was and it became more of a how to get around and dodge the most fun way. i know i'm still a newbie compared to you guys, but learning that your bike has skills even if you don't is a very good lesson. shit, braking got me dumped on the L.A. freeway once. i can tell you that ain't worth a damn. i do have to say that for the most part you guys are awesome, i learn a shit load about bikes on this site from most of you guys. and we all know that KNOWLEDGE IS POWER.haha

" shit...i lock up the rear for fun sometimes. "

Me too. Not that I do it all the time but IMO it kind of looks cool to controllably kick out the rear when coming to a stop at a stop light. How many have locked up the back tire when down shifting because of no slipper clutch or a bad timed throttle blip? The first time was it took me by surprise because I was riding real aggressively and about to lean it over into a turn. Luckily It settled before I entered it

skot - when I first read your post I thought I read you lock up the FRONT for fun. I was like WHAT!

LOL...not the front. that would be plain stupid...sounds like fun.

i lock up the back for fun... but whats funner is riding at say 40 mph and spinnin the tire.... now thats fun... just riddin with your rear spinnin going side to side. i can do it easily cause my tire is BALD. i have the original tires from when i bought it in feb. over 7000 miles ago.... hehe

Sliding the rear only gives me flat spots then when I'm doing high speed I get a nasty vibration.