Corner fast ... don't crash! (Important update page 4 .. body steer) - Page 2

I was trying this last night and I have to say it works, but takes some time to get use to.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bumble Bee

I was trying this last night and I have to say it works, but takes some time to get use to.

Just keep trying Ben ... when it comes together it's awesome ... anyone want to know anymore just ask me :-)

Jules

And speaking of gyroscopic effects, there is a worry in the scientific community that as the amount of rotating mass increases on the planet it increases the chances of it affecting the earth's rotation by slowing it. Hard discs are a big worry, but so is the heavy rotating masses that are in the transportation industry.
 
So for those of you that stare in wonder at your wheel spinning round and round, when the world ends you are partly to blame.

just as an additional comment, this is another PRIME reason to take your MSF course....counter-steering was specifically taught to me in my course....

granted they tend to describe it much more dumbed down as the "push" method as referenced above because it's easier to understand...essentially "push right, go right, push left go left".....when i took my DMV test for my license one of things we have to mimic is coming up behind a semi and doing a quick swerve....you have to accelerate to at least 20 miles per hour within a certain distance, and swerve within another shorter distance and come to a complete stop before a third marker....if you don't know how to make your bike swerve on command, there is no way you can do this effectively and stop....in IL...you fail THIS part of the exam and it's an automatic failure for the test, not points, just failure....good idea IMO....

my instructor specifically dealt with what you are describing Jules....that many people learn how to ride and subconsciously counter-steer which is fine in normal situations, but when you have to do it in an emergency, those that don't know how they typically make the bike lean, just that they do, can't do it on command quick enough to avoid an accident....

occasionally i practice counter-steering (as i have been only riding for about a year) when i am on a straight road by myself, and i make the bike swerve hard in an S pattern using it....being able to do it on command reinforces the muscle memory to do it in a bad situation....

it's also helpful if you are ever taking a long sweeping turn because if you are turning and are riding out the curve, if you know how to counter-steer, you can lean the bike more in the turn on command forcing the bike back on line....i have a very long sweeping curve ramp on the highway by my place i take a lot...it's almost a complete 360.....whenever i am in that, i counter-steer occasionally to get use to being able to force the bike into more of a lean in a curve if i need to....by doing that, it takes the fear out of forcing the bike lower and knowing you can do it...

sorry for the rambling post, but this is quite possibly one of the most important things to learn on a bike other than wear your gear !

I'll stop spinning in my chair then...lots of mass moving there.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ffingers

sorry for the rambling post, but this is quite possibly one of the most important things to learn on a bike other than wear your gear !

I love it when someone knows exactly what I'm talking about and I also am so glad to hear some of you didn't know about this stuff ... which means you now do ... which means you'll try it ... which means your odds of staying alive have just dramatically improved in the long run ... this stuff is the gospel, please please learn it, practice it, enjoy it. It's the truth about how a bike really handles ....

Best to learn a habit from the get go.  I learned it during MSF. The instructor....get this his name was Stoney....the other instructor was Rock....anyway....He placed his legs around the front tire...told us to look to the right and push with the right handlebar. I tried to force a lean with my body too...he said no...just push forward on the right handlebar. He said good...now look left and push left. I did it. Still scared me during the class and I doubt I did it right then but as soon as I got my bike, I started practicing what I was taught and was completely amazed by the outcome. I've been preaching it every since. Look right, press right.

quote:

ORIGINAL: woo545

Best to learn a habit from the get go.  I learned it during MSF. The instructor....get this his name was Stoney....the other instructor was Rock....anyway....He placed his legs around the front tire...told us to look to the right and push with the right handlebar. I tried to force a lean with my body too...he said no...just push forward on the right handlebar. He said good...now look left and push left. I did it. Still scared me during the class and I doubt I did it right then but as soon as I got my bike, I started practicing what I was taught and was completely amazed by the outcome. I've been preaching it every since. Look right, press right.

I learned it from the get go too .. my dad wouldn't let me out of his site until he could see I had it down properly .. I've been using it for 16 years now ... works for me :-)

Jules

The thing I like about this, is it's a more scientific explanation. It makes it easier to understand the physics. It's much better than just saying "it's the way it is." Gives it purpose and makes it easier to accept.

sorry I'm tired and this is an unashamed BUMP *sowwy*

Jules

To anyone who doesn't believe in counter steering, try riding with just your right hand. Push forward on the bar and the bike goes to the right even though you're steering 'left'. Counter steering comes in to its own when you have to steer sharply, to avoid a brick for example. It's something everyone should practice on a regular basis ( along with hard braking ), 'cos if you don't, when the time comes and you need it, you'll end up shiny side down. Learn counter steering, always warm your tyres up, never trust a car driver, and in corners, don't try to guess the appropriate speed - get in the appropriate gear. Never ride in anger. Thats my two penneth!                                Hey, it's nice to see some Britts on here for a change!

quote:

ORIGINAL: carl panther

To anyone who doesn't believe in counter steering, try riding with just your right hand. Push forward on the bar and the bike goes to the right even though you're steering 'left'. Counter steering comes in to its own when you have to steer sharply, to avoid a brick for example. It's something everyone should practice on a regular basis ( along with hard braking ), 'cos if you don't, when the time comes and you need it, you'll end up shiny side down. Learn counter steering, always warm your tyres up, never trust a car driver, and in corners, don't try to guess the appropriate speed - get in the appropriate gear. Never ride in anger. Thats my two penneth!                                Hey, it's nice to see some Britts on here for a change!

Spot on Carl :-) ... nice to see another Brit too ... it's pouring with rain though here just now, really thoroughly ghastly .. lol

Jules

Very good thread. I'm a new rider, and I learned this in my class that I took, but I haven't been out riding in quite a while now, last time I went out riding, the bike slid out from under me, and I have been kinda nervous since then. I wonder what would happen if I lean more.... damn rocks...

I have included this pic I have of my F3 with a pointer set up to demonstrate counter steering .. it's simply a cut off wd40 tube and stuck underneath the ignition switch with a large lump of blu tac ..

I know it sounds terribly mickey mouse but trust me ... this will show admirably what happens when you ride your bike  :-)

I have mine pointed directly to the "m" on "main beam" .. this is the straight ahead position ...

Now when you ride because of the flexibility of the blue tac you can easily make this point to any datum you choose ... right then ...when your ready hit say a left hander ... to do so you will torque the bars to the right, you will see the pointer move to the right quite noticeably as you do this ... once the bike kicks over to the left then and you are tracking with the bend and have a relaxed grip on the bars note it's position now .. You will see that it is in fact pointing slightly left too, ie the bike is actually tracking with the bend and not as some think just "leaned over" with a straight handle bar .. try it yourself, it's a great teaching aid :-)

Jules

C'mon down to the Hurricane section, and read the comments in the "being aware" post....
too many to transfer here but they surely are of value to newer riders....
Stuff like
When wearing shoes with laces, always double tie them so the bow doesn't slip over your gear/brake lever, and when you want to put your foot down, you can't........ and

Watch the wheels of cars when you're filtering in traffic - the front wheel will turn toward you BEFORE he/she moves, so you have time to take avoiding action...... etc etc

Jules is back......

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shadow1


When wearing shoes with laces, always double tie them so the bow doesn't slip over your gear/brake lever, and when you want to put your foot down, you can't........

Oh I have so done that one ..lol ... I had a small Suzuki A100 when I was 17 and my lace was around gear lever ... I had already started to lean that way ... it was too late ... yes it really hurt ..lol

Jules

now that ive read this, i find myself overanalyzing it when cornering. im paying too much attention to somthing ive done subconsiously for year....its wild

quote:

ORIGINAL: willduce

now that ive read this, i find myself overanalyzing it when cornering. im paying too much attention to somthing ive done subconsiously for year....its wild

Oh ... sigh .. I was waiting for someone to say this ..lol .. don't over analyze it ... just be aware and practice, practice practice :-)

Jules

Thanks for this, I just started riding and this is going to help me out a lot

quote:

ORIGINAL: blawjr

Thanks for this, I just started riding and this is going to help me out a lot

:-)   :-)   :-)


Jules

The way I remembered what to do before it felt natural is "push on the side you want to turn towards"
 
IE  -  If you want to go right - push on the right bar,   if you want to go left - push on the left bar
 
And YES - it has saved my ass a few times too

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dean0

The way I remembered what to do before it felt natural is "push on the side you want to turn towards"

IE  -  If you want to go right - push on the right bar,   if you want to go left - push on the left bar

And YES - it has saved my ass a few times too

You can look at it anyway you like so long as you are "aware" of it... that's all that really counts here .. for myself I naturally just counter steer by applying the force evenly to both bars ... and yes the whole point of this post is to try and save asses :-)

Jules

I try to use countersteering in very corner I can.  The bike leans itself.  I've been doign this for years as well and for those that commented that it feels like you're thinking about it too much, it will come natually as long as you keep doing it in the beginning

I have a quick question...like I said I'm new to riding. When you come up to say, a stop sign...and take a 90 degree turn to the right, do you counter steer since you're not exactly going that fast? I feel like an idiot asking but I feel i have to since just paid 4,000 bucks for this beautiful machine and I really don't want to mess it up :-P

quote:

ORIGINAL: blawjr

I have a quick question...like I said I'm new to riding. When you come up to say, a stop sign...and take a 90 degree turn to the right, do you counter steer since you're not exactly going that fast? I feel like an idiot asking but I feel i have to since just paid 4,000 bucks for this beautiful machine and I really don't want to mess it up :-P

Please don't ever feel silly asking me any questions about this stuff ... I know it can sound confusing and the science of cornering is complicated and an exact one.

It's like if you describe how to drive a car ... it sounds more complex than actually just getting in and driving ..

At low speed a bike handles differently to how it does at high speed ... we can define low speed as sub 20mph here .. so if you are actually stationary and pull out of a turn to go right you will simply steer or turn the bars to the right and very noticeably so too ..there are no gyroscopic effects at these speeds and you are balancing the bike yourself ..

It's when you are over say 15-20 mph that there is a natural switch over between normal turn to steer and counter steering ... once the wheels are at a certain speed the gyroscopic effects start to take over ... so we can safely assume that by 30 - 40 mph you are using pure counter steering to turn your bike ... the gyroscopic effects are what help to keep a bike upright at speed too .. this is why you can take your hands off the bars and the bike continues to track straight ahead ... get a bicycle wheel and speed it up really fast and hold the spindle between your fingers to feel this effect ..also this is a good way of demonstrating counter steering to yourself .. try turning the spindle to the right and feel a force push the wheel to lean left ...

Another point to make which has been said earlier I am sure is that once you have counter steered into a bend and the bike is now leaning over you do not continue to apply force to the bars .. once you are at the desired lean you relax on the bars and let the bike track naturally around the bend.

A pointer set up demonstrates this well and once in the lean mode you will see the bars are in fact steering  slightly into the bend and not as some people think that the bars are dead straight and it is the lean causing the turn ... the lean is just a result ..

Jules




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