Corner fast ... don't crash! (Important update page 4 .. body steer) - Page 3

quote:

ORIGINAL: Juliet


 just be aware and practice, practice practice

Are you certain it's not 'practise, practise, practise', Mr.s. UK.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/schools/gcsebitesize/english/writingnonfict/gettingstartedrev7.shtml

 

quote:

Are you certain it's not 'practise, practise, practise', Mr.s. UK.

Perhaps our British member made a mistake in when to use the verb form of 'practise' and instead used the more universally and more American friendy spelling of 'practice'. More likely however, I believe out of sheer politeness, knowing she is on a predominately American forum, she made this decision conciously and with much forthought. I had not realized you had become the Grand Poobah of Spelling, Syntax and other Grammatical Errors.  I will consider nominating you for this exhalted position the next time it comes up for re-election. With that said, I would personally like to thank you for spending the time to attempt to research such minutia, you are an inspiration to us all, that is why I thought you would be happy to read the following.

From http://www.wikihow.com/Avoid-Common-Spelling-Mistakes-when-Writing-a-wikiHow

1. Be aware of noun and verb differences in words like:
   
2. advice/advise advice is the noun whereas advise is the verb

practice/practise practice is the noun and practise is the verb (in British English)

affect/effect - affect is a verb , effect is a noun. So you talk about the effect of something, but affecting someone.

Although your research was incomplete, I must thank you Mr. Spirit for attempting to make the Internet safe for those of us that cringe when reading 'prolly' (instead of 'probably') or my pet peave 'teh' (instead of 'the'), knowing you are on the job will make me sleep better at night. What you lack in talent, you more than make up for with misplaced enthusiam. I believe with several years of hard work you will be able to become competent enough to attain 'Grand Poobah' status, that title, I believe, is still held by Voodoo. 

Thank you SpiritRR, you are a valuable asset to our forum, I will strive to have time in my life to put forth for such inane endeavours.
 
edit: maybe I already do have the time.

Thank you. However, Spelling and Syntax are not Grammatical Errors, so I would be the Grand Poobah of Spelling, Syntax and Grammatical Correctness in the Global English Dialect. Thank you again for your consideration, but my research is never incomplete. And the plural noun form you used is 'minutiae'.

I stand corrected on all counts...thank you for your dedication and vigilance.
 
edit: I would like to point out the use of the phrase 'Global English Dialect' in that form is an oxymoron. Global and dialect when used to describe the dominant or original form of a language and not some regional subset is a faux pax of epic porportions.
 
viz:
 
A dialect (from the Greek word διάλεκτος, dialektos) is a variety of a language that is characteristic of a particular group of the language's speakers.[1] The term is applied most often to regional speech patterns, but a dialect may also be defined by other factors, such as social class.[
 
As illusutrated, Global and Dialect are mutually exclusive when used in the framework of your arguement. English is a language, not a dialect, therefore in the afformentioned phrase there is a cornucopia of errors which I do not have the time nor inclination to respond to.  But I do believe with some work we can find work for you as a proofreader for many fine periodicals such as 'Archie and Jughead fall off the roof' or ' Dude where's my car? The magazine.'

quit bitching about the way someone talks and give more tips

Countersteering is present at any speed.  Even your, "low speed."  In my slow speed video I'm moving so fast my speedo isn't moving... I'm using countersteering.
 
Fish...

Counter steering is not present at very low speed because it relies totally on the gyroscopic effects of the wheels rotating .. at low speeds as in walking pace say .. you simply turn the bars to the direction you want to go .. you just simply steer the bike into the turn ..as speed picks up and the gyro effect takes over then counter steering comes into play :-)

Jules

Here's a really good page on counter steering and the effects or not of body movement or lean ... too many people put so much stock in body lean and it's just not as effective as they think .. basically steering a motorbike in any kind of quick fasion and especially to avoid objects where an instant change is required is done soley through steering input and that means counter steering ...

http://www.superbikeschool.com/machinery/no-bs-machine.php


I think this bit is important :-) ..


No B.S.

At this writing, we have run nearly 100 riders of all experience levels on this double barred bike. It has made believers out of every single one--in the actuality of countersteering of course. Even at speeds of no more than 20 to 35 mph, no matter how much you tug or push or pull or jump around on the bike, the best we saw was that the bike wiggled and became somewhat unstable. Did it turn? Not really. Would it turn at higher speed? Absolutely not. Could you avoid something in your path? No Way. Could anyone quick turn the bike? Hopeless! The best result was one of my riding coaches. He got into a full hang-off position and was able to persuade the bike, by jerking on it, to start on a wide, wide arc in the paddock at Laguna Seca, a piece of asphalt that is about 500 X 800 feet. Like turning an oil tanker ship, start at noon and be on the turning arc at around 1:00 PM. It wasn't smooth and it wasn't very effective. We now call this bike "The NO BS Bike". There are no doubts in anyone's mind after they ride it that they have been countersteering all along. No doubts.
You can hear riders, who believed in the body-steering method, laughing in their helmets at 100 yards away once they get those solid mounted bars in their hands and try to body-steer the bike. They just shake their heads. No B.S.



Dangerous Misconceptions

Now if you want to look a little further into this, what you will see is this; riders who still labor under the misconception that they body-steer are devoting themselves in a system that can do a great deal of actual harm. Firstly, it is seriously misguided to add an additional series of actions to the steering process. When it is quick, critical steering that is needed to avoid something, that lag I have observed so many times in street riders, could cost you your hide. Adding 2/10ths to 5/10ths of a second, or more, to the steering procedure at 60 mph means that you have just gone another 18 to 44 feet, or more, down the road before you started to avoid that muffler lying in your path. Kids, don't try this at home.


I really like this bit and I do think they should carry labels because it is simply so scary how many people are not aware of counter steering or only do it subconsciously ... you simply have to consciously be able to counter steer in an emergency ... it's a life saver!!



            WARNING: THIS VEHICLE COUNTER-STEERS.
IF YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND COUNTERSTEERING DO NOT RIDE.
SEEK THE HELP  OF A QUALIFIED PROFESSIONAL Riding Coach.






.

How about this ?
http://cid-fd1db3fa41cb79a5.skydrive.live.com/browse.aspx/CBR1000F
Bike book (Twist of the Wrist)
A twist of the wrist, by Keth Code, who started the California Superbike school......

Pete is that the wrong link??


EDIT: oops sorry just not looking I am kinda tired just now ...

Jules

Your product will  become a better product in the market. 

Thats a nice read.....thanks for posting...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rod38um

Thats a nice read.....thanks for posting...

Thank you ... I am just happy if it helps anyone to ride better and safer :-)

Jules

Juliet, what are some ways to practice this technique?  I live out in BFE and have plenty of open road for the most part.  What are some drills I can do?  New to the pavement world!!!  Road dirt bikes all my life well most of anyways!!!

I will reply to this in full tomorrow but its night here now and I am nearly asleep ...

Jules

Roger that and thanks!!!! 

quote:

ORIGINAL: stix818

Juliet, what are some ways to practice this technique?  I live out in BFE and have plenty of open road for the most part.  What are some drills I can do?  New to the pavement world!!!  Road dirt bikes all my life well most of anyways!!!

The fact you have plenty of open roads is a good thing ...   we all do counter steering but most do it subconsciously, its those riders who do it consciously that make the best and safest riders out ther.e who are able to avoid accidents on bends.

If you are completely new to this phenomenon then the best thing to feel its effect are to go down one of these open roads when its quiet ... get the bike up to about 40mph and simply start swerving it from side to side  ..try and really take in what you are doing ..analyse it ..you will find that by applying a force to the bars one way results in the bike kicking over the other way, ie applying a left turning force to the bars results in the bike kicking over to the right .. just alternatively push the bars first to the left and then the right and note how you are making the bike kick over from side to side .. these are small forces you are applying at this speed ..barely turning the bars at all ..its why I prefer to call it a torque force you are applying through the bars rather than an actual turn .. this all happens because of the gyroscopic effect of the front wheel ... spin a bicycle wheel up and hold the spindle between your fingers and try turning it left to right and watch/feel how the wheel reacts ..

So there we have the effect on an open straight road ...just play with this and enjoy it ..its awesome to a lot of riders when they first get the hang of it and feel its effects consciously for the first time ...

The next thing to practise is on actual bends ..try and find some nice quiet bends, not too tight at this stage ... lets say you are approaching a left hand bend at 50mph and you can keep this speed up through the bend too ... as you approach the bend and need to turn in you will apply a small right turning force through the bars or as some prefer to say a push on the left bar .. I tend to apply the force evenly between the two bars but each to their own .. as you apply this right turning force to the bars you will feel the bike lean over or kick over to the left ..once the bike is over you relax on the bars and let the bike track "naturally" through the bend ..if you were to keep the force applied the bike would just keep leaning over until it kissed the tarmac ... this is important  ..you are only applying this right tuning force until the bike is suitably leaned and tracking in the bend ... of course all of the above actually happens very quickly .. the force is instantly translated into a left lean and then you are going through the bend in a relaxed and stable condition ...

To come back upright after the bend you will now apply a left turning force through the bars (or a push on the right bar) which will kick the bike back upright again ...


Apart from practising all this until the cows come home and everytime you ride the next best thing  to consider is obstacle avoidance ..in fact this is what its all about really ..yes being able to consciously counter steer a bike will get you through the bends faster and safer but avoiding collisions is the ticket here ..

This is easier if you have someone to help and make sure its quiet too ... have someone scrunch up some paper and place it in the middle of the lane on the bend you are approaching .. the trick is to go into the bend and find this paper right in your pathway and pretend its a brick or some other heavy object that could unseat you or cause you to crash ... so you are leaned into the bend and the bike is tracking through it when suddenly you need to steer around this obstacle ..most riders get target fixation and just simply hit it ... others dont know what to do because they leaned into that bend by subconscious counter steering instead of conscious counter steering .. so they tend to hit the object too .. the ones who understand counter steering and are confident with it simply steer around the object ..either by leaning the bike over further to go tighter or standing the bike up more to go wider .. ie going either side of the object depending on whats best ...

Again once in bends you can practise all this by looking at marks etc in the road and imaging they are objects you must steer around ...


The fun part of conter steering is in a set of repeating tight S bends ..we have a wonderful set not far from me ..I must video them next time I get out there on the bike and load it up here ... this is wher.e the bike is leaned over one way but then you have to pick it up over centre and lean it back down the other side and then back again ..literally flipping the bike one way, then the other ..never is counter steering more prevalent than when doing this  .literally torqueing the bars one way and then the other way as the bike simply dances its way through the bends :-)

Jules

Having problems posting!!!

Ah finally!!! Anyways thanks for the info everyone. It''s funny how I read this forum and then went home for a hot lap around town and noticed everything you guys mentioned!!! I started doing some practice and hit a couple corners around 50mph. I would get in the corner pick my line and then make adjustments and move to different lines whil.e in the corner. I thought this was good practice. They were only big sweeping corners but regardless I was able to make the bike do what I wanted!!!

quote:

ORIGINAL: stix818


Ah finally!!! Anyways thanks for the info everyone. It''''s funny how I read this forum and then went home for a hot lap around town and noticed everything you guys mentioned!!! I started doing some practice and hit a couple corners around 50mph. I would get in the corner pick my line and then make adjustments and move to different lines whil.e in the corner. I thought this was good practice. They were only big sweeping corners but regardless I was able to make the bike do what I wanted!!!

That is great to hear!! :-) .. making the bike do what you want is what this is all about ..

Jules

I just thought it interesting that in my MSF class they only tell you "Slow, Press, and Roll on the throttle" to go around the corner.  I thought, "Press what way? What am I pressing? Am I pressing?" lol. no actual explanation of counter steering though... 

quote:

ORIGINAL: jennafer42

I just thought it interesting that in my MSF class they only tell you "Slow, Press, and Roll on the throttle" to go around the corner.  I thought, "Press what way? What am I pressing? Am I pressing?" lol. no actual explanation of counter steering though... 

I am wondering if they mean push here?? ..some people describe counter steering as push left to go left and push right to go right ..ie push on the left bar to go left ... it all amounts to the same thing really, you are simply applying an opposite force to the bars to that which you want the bike to go ... again I must repeat here that this opposite force is only applied to initially get the bike leaning over in the bend, once over you let the bike track naturally through the bend with a neutral hold on the bars.

If you set up a pointer system it admirably demonstrates that the bike is in fact tracking through the bend as the pointers become offset from each other showing that the bike is actually turning into the bend ...

Jules

quote:

ORIGINAL: woo545

This is something, that if you watch the races on TV...you will see the front of the racers turn in the opposite direction of the turn.....

Here are a few videos that back up Juliet''s post.

The Mordeth13 version:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8IdTq3_3WI

Countersteering 101 1.1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C848R9xWrjc

Slow Speed Countersteering
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLzB5oriblk

Midspeed Countersteering
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1A7o-aXvqU

I would like to also add...it is best that you do all of your braking BEFORE entering the turn and try to avoid any sort of hard braking while in the turn. Brake too hard while in a turnwill cause the lose of traction and you becoming intimately friendly with the asphalt.

The instructors I had in my MSF were great on teaching this method. Though I heard that someone in another MSF class at a different location specifically told the riders NOT to use this method, but instead to push the handlebar to the ground...this is wrong. What Jules is describing is dead-on.


EDIT: Forgot to add the Queen''s English....Blimey!

I''m brand new to motorcycles. I have just completed the MSF course and they too told us to "press" the bars. Press right go right press left go left. Whats the difference if we press,push or torque the bars? Don''t they all give off the same reaction?


this whole write up is greatly appreciated Juliet.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dream Seller


Im brand new to motorcycles. I have just completed the MSF course and they too told us to "press" the bars. Press right go right press left go left. Whats the difference if we press,push or torque the bars? Don''''t they all give off the same reaction?


this whole write up is greatly appreciated Juliet.

Thank you, I am really glad people are getting something out of this!! :-) ... it all describes the same thing ..push or press the left bar to go left ..push or press the right bar to go right ... I prefer "push" as it seems somewhat clearer to say push on the bar ...  so yes push, press or torque its all the same thing ... I actually tend to "torque" both bars evenly when I counter steer, remember too that you are only torqueing the bars enough to get the desired kick over or lean angle ... once over you have a neutral hold on the bars just as when riding upright .. that is until you wish to come back upright or maybe lean over further ..

Jules

Just drag knees and go really fast with yours eyes closed!  Works for me