Corner fast ... don't crash! (Important update page 4 .. body steer) - Page 4

Hi Jules, very interesting post.

I''ve been riding bicycles since just after birth I guess, we all grow up with them around here.  At 16 I had a 50cc Suzuki for four days until it, and I, were totaled by a drunk driving a car at night with no lights on... And I''ve been riding the Honda since 2002.

Anyways what I''m trying to say is that I''ve never given this theory any thought. The bike just goes where I want it to go. And I''ve had to avoid many obstacles like road kill, tires and refrigerators. Wait, what? Yeah, really some people would dump just about anything smack in the middle of the road...

However somehow to me it seems wrong to counter-steer when you come out of a bend. When I come out of one I usually increase throttle to accelerate. Counter-steering while accelerating out of a curve sounds dangerous. But then again I might have always done this without giving it any thought.

Needless to say I''ll pay more attention to the why and how of steering next time I go out riding. Thanks for bringing this to attention.

LOL @ closing eyes and going fast

Anyway, I haven''''t put a little wd40 tube on my handle bars like you did, but it feels like when I''''m cornering, I''''m ALWAYS counter steering, through the whole turn.  Is this correct? Seems like you all made it sound like the wheel repositions (either straight or into the turn) after the initial counter steer.  I also noticed, and planned to work on, the fact that I dont lean very much with my bike unless i want it to turn harder (i.e. turning onto a road at 5-10 mph or making a u-turn in a tight space).  Most of the time when at higher speeds, I simply counter steer.

I knew about counter steering before I ever got on a bike (made sure of that).  I have a 1998 600 F3 and it seems like there is NO leaning on my bike, only counter steering and THEN leaning to help the turn.  My friend has a Ninja Es500 and I can lean it without counter steering at all.

quote:

ORIGINAL: soccer13pro2007

LOL @ closing eyes and going fast

Anyway, I haven''''''''''''''''t put a little wd40 tube on my handle bars like you did, but it feels like when I''''''''''''''''m cornering, I''''''''''''''''m ALWAYS counter steering, through the whole turn.  Is this correct? Seems like you all made it sound like the wheel repositions (either straight or into the turn) after the initial counter steer.  I also noticed, and planned to work on, the fact that I dont lean very much with my bike unless i want it to turn harder (i.e. turning onto a road at 5-10 mph or making a u-turn in a tight space).  Most of the time when at higher speeds, I simply counter steer.

I knew about counter steering before I ever got on a bike (made sure of that).  I have a 1998 600 F3 and it seems like there is NO leaning on my bike, only counter steering and THEN leaning to help the turn.  My friend has a Ninja Es500 and I can lean it without counter steering at all.

I think you''''re simply misinterpreting the feedback you''''re getting from the bike.  It''''s all physics.  Like we said, you have to counter-steer only to initiate the lean of the bike, to perform a turn (when not talking about very slow speeds).  Say, in a left turn...think about it, if the wheel was still pointing to the right of the bike''''s front-to-back axis, it would be going right, not left.  Except for the fact that if you were leaned left and turning right, you would actually be in the process of falling over!

And then we could start talking about center of mass, centripetal force, support, etc. to explain what''''s going on in proper, stable turning.  But I tend to be long-winded, so I''''ll spare us all.

And for anyone keeping tally, I was taught the "push on the right grip to go right, push on the left grip to go left" mindset of counter-steering.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MegamanNL


Anyways what Im trying to say is that Ive never given this theory any thought. The bike just goes where I want it to go. And Ive had to avoid many obstacles like road kill, tires and refrigerators. Wait, what? Yeah, really some people would dump just about anything smack in the middle of the road...

Most people dont think about this and its not theory, its fact, you counter steer to turn a bike, period ... the bike goes where you want it to go because you counter steer it and make it go where you want it to go ...

quote:

ORIGINAL: MegamanNL
However somehow to me it seems wrong to counter-steer when you come out of a bend. When I come out of one I usually increase throttle to accelerate. Counter-steering while accelerating out of a curve sounds dangerous. But then again I might have always done this without giving it any thought.

When going into a bend all your braking and deceleration should be over with .. you tend to go in with a trailing throttle or very gentle acceleration ... who says you have to counter steer while accelerating?? ... when the bike is leaned over you simply pick it back up to central by counter steeering when you are ready to go straight, then turn on the gas ...

quote:

ORIGINAL: MegamanNL
Needless to say Ill pay more attention to the why and how of steering next time I go out riding. Thanks for bringing this to attention.

You are welocome, ask anything anytime about this :-)

Jules

quote:

ORIGINAL: soccer13pro2007

Anyway, I havent put a little wd40 tube on my handle bars like you did, but it feels like when Im cornering, Im ALWAYS counter steering, through the whole turn.  Is this correct? 

No, you are not counter steering through the whole turn ... the pressure is only applied to kick the bike over into the turn, once in the turn the bike actually tracks with the bend ... you will find you in fact have a neutral hold on the bars ..if you kept up the counter steer  you would simply kiss the tarmac ... the bike can only go left by actually steeering left but to get it to steer left you counter steer right to kick it over first, then ease up on the bars and let them find their way ..in reality your brain is a computer doing countless little adjustments a second ... when your bike is upright you can take your hands off the bars (not recommended ..lol) and the bike stays going forwards due to trail ..you can do the same in the bend once the bike is tracking because the bike is in a stable condition again ...the forces are only applied on the bars to drop the bike over or pick it back up

quote:

ORIGINAL: soccer13pro2007

Seems like you all made it sound like the wheel repositions (either straight or into the turn) after the initial counter steer.
 

Yes it does as explained above ... once in the turn initiated by the counter steer then the pointers will indeed show the bike to be steering or tracking with the bend ...

quote:

ORIGINAL: soccer13pro2007

I also noticed, and planned to work on, the fact that I dont lean very much with my bike unless i want it to turn harder (i.e. turning onto a road at 5-10 mph or making a u-turn in a tight space).  Most of the time when at higher speeds, I simply counter steer.

Counter steering is 99% of it ... lean is very subjective and down to personal preference ..at speed to take a series of rapid turns or to avoid objects you counter steer or have an accident

The NO BS fixed bar bike is the ultimate eye opener on this stuff :-)

quote:

ORIGINAL: soccer13pro2007
I knew about counter steering before I ever got on a bike (made sure of that).  I have a 1998 600 F3 and it seems like there is NO leaning on my bike, only counter steering and THEN leaning to help the turn.  My friend has a Ninja Es500 and I can lean it without counter steering at all.

The trouble is with counter steering the forces are often low especially at slower speeds ..we all do it subconsciously anyway .. when you lean off to the left there is a natural tendency to shorten your right arm and pull the right bar at the same time pushing the left bar ..you just dont notice this and think you turned by leaning, you didnt, you counter steered ...

On the NO BS bike no matter how much they leaned off and jumped about they could not get it to turn ..it makes a believer out of everyone who rides it ...

Jules

Turns out the problem was my front tire, it needed replaced, now it at least feels like I can lean the bike without counter steering (though I might be counter steering subconsciously) I''m pretty sure I was feeling the tire fighting the turn (wanting to turn harder) before the new one, which caused the feeling I was counter steering through the whole turn.  You should have seen the tire, it was bad.  Bought the bike used and rode it anyways (unwisely) until I had money to fix it.

OMG!! ..lol ..sorry its late, have been drinking, have the giggles now but trust me you were COUNTER STEERING!!

Jules (giggling)

^^^ Oh dear!! ... get back in your box, you drunken skunk!! ... she was right though, you were counter steering!! :-)

Jules

Juliet, I read your posting and went out and tried it. Now I''ve been riding for four years but new to sport bikes, 5 months, and I know of counter-steering but I just haven''t given it that much thought and attention. So I actually had my suspension professionally set and had a new pair of grip tires mounted and I went out and tried the counter-steering and didn''t realize how much control that I had. It built my confidence a little.

Something I feel that I''d like to add for anyone who reads these posts is the gear and set up. Between my suspension and tires, I''m no longer worrying about going down in a corner because I don''t have the right setup. It also boosted my confidence and allowed me to focus on my turns. So everyone, if you are riding the corners hard and fast, make sure you have the proper gear and equipment, it will give you confidence and a better ride!

Thanks Juliet.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Big Red

Juliet, I read your posting and went out and tried it. Now Ive been riding for four years but new to sport bikes, 5 months, and I know of counter-steering but I just havent given it that much thought and attention. So I actually had my suspension professionally set and had a new pair of grip tires mounted and I went out and tried the counter-steering and didnt realize how much control that I had. It built my confidence a little.

Thanks Juliet.

You are most welcome!! :-)

I am happy to put any amount of time responding to the posts here if you guys are getting something from it and riding better and safer ... most newbies are actually taken aback by the control they realise they have after learning to counter steer correctly as opposed to what they thought made a bike steer by  "just leaning it over mate"

I am including a link from Page 2 of this other thread here because its got relevant discussion of counter steering versus trying to turn the bike by leaning off it ...

http://www.cbrforum.com/m_622911/mpage_2/key_/tm.htm

The NO B.S. bike is the thing you really need to understand here :-)

Jules

I had heard of the whole counter steer concept just never actually tried it. I''m going riding on October 04, 2008 with some friends. I''m trying it!! Thanks Jules

quote:

ORIGINAL: Big Red

Something I feel that I''''d like to add for anyone who reads these posts is the gear and set up. Between my suspension and tires, I''''m no longer worrying about going down in a corner because I don''''t have the right setup. It also boosted my confidence and allowed me to focus on my turns. So everyone, if you are riding the corners hard and fast, make sure you have the proper gear and equipment, it will give you confidence and a better ride!

 
Hey Big Red,
 
Congrats, on getting the proper suspension setup and tires for your riding. I would like to put a friendly reminder in: that the tires and suspension will build confidence(but not skills) don''t let it go to your head or things could go bad quick. Same thing happened to me and I went bikeless for 6 months

Here are a few track day instructor vids that taught me alot. Hope you all enjoy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxODoscChNo&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxb5nRufuZ8&feature=related

Just want to clarify...that is "track day." There are few situations on the road where you are going to have to ride like that. If you are, then you are probably going over the speed limit.

Well, We go ride every week end with a huge group of sport bikes here, and we  usually gout out to the lakes or out on farm roads and ride the curves, so  the info there is actually really helpful. It helped me with taking the curves.:  }

That maybe the case, but you are missing the entire point of this post. You are not going to be dragging knee in an emergency maneuver. This post is about knowing how the bike will handle, so you can conscientiously put it into practice until it becomes a habit and instinctive. Know matter how much you put that knee down, it''s not going to be the reason you avoid the kid that runs out into the middle of the street or the car that cuts you off because they "didn''t see you." You will not have time to adjust your body to react to situations such as that. The only thing you will have time to do is 2 quick flicks to of the handlebars. The emergency maneuver and then the recovery.

I guess I did miss the point, I didn''t read all 6 pages just the first few, I thought the  "corner fast...dont crash"  was reffering to proper taking of corners at fast speeds....and your quote   "This is something, that if you watch the races on TV...you will see the front of the racers turn in the opposite direction of the turn..... "  made me think that as well.   I was just sharing some links that I thought were very helpful in the  basics of taking "fast corners"  and uyou dont have to be doing break neck speeds to use these principals. but any how  just trying to help out.

Rudely, thank you for the links and the help ..its all significant actually in my book ..both you and Woo are right here :-)

I was about to tell Woo look at the title of the thread again ..lol ... what we have here is a whole thread dedicated to using counter steering safely on the road and staying alive because, yes at the end of the day the only thing that will keep you from crashing is to counter steer that bike around the object and not lean ..as far as racing goes its the same only the speeds are so much higher and greater forces are involved ..we counter steer the bike around a race track with even greater forces put through the bars but at these kinds of speeds we really get into centrifugal and centripetal forces too, hence the hanging off at these speeds, its not so much as to make the bike lean as to work against the great forces trying to fling you outward ..road or track, its all counter steeering, its all good and I would love to race a bike around the track one day before I grow too much older just to see what I can really do!! :-)

Jules

Yeah, I have to say, my posts did come out a lot harsher than I intended. Sorry about that Rudely.

As for the leaning, yes it does help out at higher rates of speed, but we know that no one here does anything like that on the road, right? (wink, wink) We''ve had a few threads based on this...mostly by people saying that they lean to make the bike turn. I get my threads confused.

I personally don''t drag knee, but the one thing I do take out of that video (and videos like it), is that I look over the my mirror in which I''m turning to help balance the bike a little. At the 55 mph range and less, I find that sufficient to help me out. Maybe someday, I''ll try a test track and do the rest. Who knows. I just feel that if I am in a position to do that on the street, then I''m probably going to fast for the conditions (you never know when you will come across a pile of gravel or horse dung on the turn.

Here is another simple and brief explanation of counter steering ... well worth a quick read to recap all we have been saying here and a nice easy article for novices to follow :-)


http://www.virginiawind.com/tips/steering.asp



Leaning into the corner. This is how most people go round corners before they learn about counter steering. It basically involves leaning a little in the direction you want to go, and as if by magic the bike seems to turn that way. But leaning alone wont turn the bike; watch racers as they approach bends. They shift their weight to one side long before the bend in preparation for hanging off, but the bike still travels in a straight line so shifting your body weight doesnt have any effect.
What actually causes the bike to turn is that as you lean your body into the corner you gently push the inside handlebar away from you. Effectively what you are doing is counter steering, you just dont know it

You can use the leaning technique for you entire biking life and never have a problem, but if you want to steer quickly and precisely you need to use...........

Counter steering. The basic theory goes: - Turn the bars to the left and the bike will go right. Counter intuitive, counter steering*. So how does it work? When you first counter steer, the bike will actually begin to move in the direction you turn the bars. If you want to prove this , try aiming at a mark in the road and counter steer just before you get to it, you will will pass the mark on the road on the side that you have steered and then move in the other direction immediately afterwards. Its this initial movement in the "right " direction that helps the bike to tip into the corner . Gyroscopic forces from turning the spinning front wheel accentuate this. Using counter steering lets you pick the exact spot at which you want to begin turning. It also allows you to get the bike turning very quickly, instead of waiting for it to drop slowly into the corner. On roads you know you should aim to use counter steering to get to your maximum chosen lean angle for the corner as quickly as possible, instead of slowly easing the bike over and then easing it upright again. Counter steering means that you dont need to lean the bike as far over for the same speed through the corner.


Steering with the throttle. There are two ways to steer with the throttle, one is very easy , the other very difficult. 1. Easy. This relies on the fact that for the same lean angle the bike will turn tighter the slower its going. So if you want to tighten your line in a corner you should slow down and if you want to open it up you should accelerate. But beware and bare in mind that backing off mid-corner is best avoided if you are leaning a long way as it loads the front tire and could cause it to slide. 2. Difficult. Accelerate hard enough whilst in the corner and the back tire will begin to slide outwards, pointing the bike into the corner and tightening the turn, Its called over steer. Top racers use all the time to modify their line in a corner but for road riding it has limited benefits and big drawbacks if you get it wrong. If you shut the throttle when the rear is sliding youre likely to high side.


Weighting the pegs Some racers say that they make minor adjustments in corners by putting pressure on the footpegs. The best way to see if this works is to try it. Road riding experts say that this has little relevance to road riding.

*A reader sent in the following note:
Just a little additional info on "counter steering". The term refers to a law of physics known as gyroscopic precession. Very simply the law states that "a rotating body when turned through its axis will tilt with equal force in an opposite direction". To demonstrate the law, hold the axle of a bicycle wheel between your hands, held straight out infront of you. Now get someone to spin the bicycle wheel. If you then try to turn the axle,as you would the handle bars of your motorcycle, you will notice that the top of the wheel will lean in the opposite direction to the turn. Not much of an explanation but it may help you to understand whats going on between your wheels and bars!

Hi i''m Greg (and a newby to this forum) 89 1000 (hurricane for those in the US)
 
      As said above the countersteering skill is invaluable.
 
  I thought i would share a few things I have learn''t over the years (younger days on Blades and track days)
 
The Footpeg weighting skill works well (loads one side of bike and lowers centre of gravity), But on low grip surfaces if you apply this principal, left turn and load left peg, if you lose grip at rear the bike will fall. will try and spin on it own axis.
 
I''ll put it this way, You all see in fast bikes mag how these guys are doing long controlled power slides.
 
This is acheived by, lots of throttle and if the are sliding left they are loading up the right peg. too try and push the bike back under the slide.
 
 
Another skill which works well and is super simple is to lean you body and shift your bodyweight. (more applicable at high speed 120kph+)
 
What i mean if you are going into a right corner push your right shoulder and drop the same bum cheak off the seat going into the corner this places more downforce from your body (acting as a spoiler sort of) and shifting you centre of gravity for the bike to lean over, and I use this in conjuction with counter steering and footpeg weighting.
 
 
Another simple skill is if you are going into a corner to hot, you can use the rear brake (DO NOT EASE OFF THE THROTLE) this will drop the back of the bike, hense reducing wheelbase and increasing steering geometery and will tighten the line taken.
This can be practiced anywhere there is a bit of room and you will be suprised by how effective it is.
AS MENTIONED BEFORE THIS IS DONE WITH THE SAME AMOUNT OF POWER ON, DO NOT BACK OFF OR YOU CAN LOCK UP THE BACK AND CRASH!!!!!
 
 
The most important thing I think is you should set yourself up prior to each corner, this involves looking as far ahead as possible, checking road surface, adjust road speed (brake if needed), positioning body (shoulder,bum), loading peg, countersteering, accelerating out, (slow in fast out principal), and doing it again and again and again (cause we all love corners).
 
I hope this is an bit of help for some out there.
 
I dont advocate knee down (it takes the centre of gravity practice to a higher level) as you are far to committed to the line taken and can''t adjust your line taken as easily.  If you want to do that go do a take day and have a blast. It''s not for the road.
 
    Greg

very helpful