help...please...brake issue!

alright let me preface this by saying i am not an idiot...(some may disagree, but i am not)...

i just put on my SS lines and my powdercoated calipers (which are not f'd to some degree)....

i went to finally re-fill and bleed my brakes this weekend and it was a f'ing disaster....i have learned a few things and am still stumped about others...now i have never done brakes before but i have read about 1000 tutorials on it so i thought i had it pretty much down....but this is how it went this weekend...

first did the rear....hooked up the mityvac to the bleeder....created some preseure...had my buddy start filling brake fluid...within a matter of about 30 seconds...i was pulling clean fluid....closed the bleeder....topped off the res...pushed the rear brake lever (althought a little soft), brake engaged...was up on the rear stand at this point...thought i was done....left it alone...went to front...

front...HORRIBLE....anyways....started to prime the right...could NOT get pure fluid without bubbles...after 30 minutes...gave up....closed the bleeder and went to the other side....there....30 seconds and nice pure dot4 coming out of the mity vac...closed up the bleeder....went back to other side...STILL FRICKIN BUBBLES....after about an hour...realized that the bleed screw must be letting in air...went and got some teflon tape....put it around the bleeder threads and screwed it back in....HUZZAH!!! suddenly i could maintain vaccum and got a nice smooth flow pulling out of the caliper....

now here's the crappy thing...i THINK i know what it is going on but i need confirmation and/or guidance...

now...even though i got bubbless fluid pulling from the bleeders....i squeeze the lever and there is NO...i mean NO pressure....after trying to figure out what the hell is going on...my buddy and i chatting...i start squeezing the lever a bunch and it is slowly getting firmer...then i realize...because i had the calipers powdercoated...the pistons were seated all the way back into the calipers....so i think i had to get them back out agains the pads and rotors....so i keep going and sure enough after what seems like a million pulls....i have a LITTLE front brake...not nearly enough to stop the bike but if the wheel is free spinning on a front stand, the front brakes can stop it...on the ground...no dice...

at this point, i have been at it for 3.5 hours and am pissed...i take the bike off both stands (had it off the front for the front brakes, just FYI)....and move onto something else...now the rear brake whihc i thought was fine turns out it doesn't have much power either when actually on the ground...GREAT!....but i think i just need to pump it like i did the front...i never did it to the rear....

what i think i have learned is that the M/Cs only displace a very little amount of fluid and therfore to get the pistons out of the calipers to where they need to be takes quite a bit of pumping....i HOPE i am right....

what do i next? i did this on sat and let it sit on sunday...i am assuming i should redo the process and re-bleed....i haven't tested the levers to see if they got any firmer yet...i will tonight...

does anyone have any thoughts or comments....i was seriously ready to kick the damn thing over...luckily i moved on and installed some of my LED lighting which looks kick ass so that saved the day..

thanks guys, appreciate any guidance...
 

Never used the mityvac thingy, if it was just the one brake that's doing this I'd say it you had a rooted master cylinder, since thats not the case......
I've always used just clear PVC tubing & a jar to bleed/replace brake fluid, only fancy thing I've ever used was an attachment with a one way valve, but that was eons ago.
Couple of things, are you bleeding into a jar (or whatever) immersed in brake fluid?
When you pump the brakes, are you holding the lever in when you tighten off the bleed valve?
Are you topping up the brake reservoir as you go & not letting it pump air?
Twin disc at the front have always been a strange one, since basically their only using the one hose, with a two way adapter, but you always get different results on each bloody one.

OK, when a brake won't pump back up, means you either have a stuffed M/C or you have air in the system, if the brakes where ok (as in working) before, then the powder coating would make stuff all difference. Good luck

Oh, one last thing, just be aware of the amount of force your using to close off the valves, the taper at the end is very fine & can be blunted with excessive (read :enthusiastic) tightening & won't seat properly. If you suspect this could be the case, get some newies, as their cheap enough.

the mityvac thing actually worked really well...i just think the bleed fitting was letting in air as once i used a little teflon tape, there was no issue...

i am using a clear tube, but with the mityvac..the one i have has a vaccum gauge...meaning i can check if there is vaccum on the bleeder...so i am about 95% sure that air is not getting in through the bleeder once the vaccum is set up and pulling fluid....like i said, i am getting pure fluid from the bleed with no bubbles...as for tightening the bleed with the lever squeezed..yes, i am doing that, but like i said the pressure is very weak...

like i said i replaced the lines with SS lines so i am not on a split line system anymore, i have two separate hoses to each caliper...so i know that isn't an issue...and like i said, i got pure fluid from each caliper at each bleeder...

i don't think i have a M/C problem as squeezing the lever a few (what feels like) a thousand times did firm up the lever a bit...

my issue that i think i am having is because i had the calipers powdered...the pistons got pushed flush back into the caliper....therefore they need to re-position themselves to put pressure on the pads and thus the rotors...

when most people are bleeding, the calipers don't need to be reset as the pistons are not being forced back into the caliper...now consider that with the fact that the M/C forces small amounts of liquid into the lines (at least from what i can tell) it would take quite a bit of pumping to get the pistons to where they need to be...at least, that is what i am thinking...

i am going to check them today to see how firm the lever has gotten, if at all....what i am thinking is that i will need to keep squeezing the lever for a bit more until things get somewhat firm, then try to re-bleed again...thus bleeding them with the pistons in the caliper in the right position..

do i sound nuts with my logic?

No, your logic is fine, like any problem, you just follow the most probable path. & as Murphy says "Anything that can go wrong, Will go wrong & at the most inconveniant time") When I replace my pads, I push them against the pistons & force them back into the caliper so they clear the disc, & this makes no difference when I reapply the brake (it's weak till the pads hit the disc & pressure builds up).
If you think you have a shitty valve adjuster(s), then off to the shop with ye laddy & get some new ones.

yeah...i don't think the adjusters are bad....dunno...

as for a couple things...i think if you push the pads back and thus the pistons when changing the pads, you are maintaining a lot of pressure that was already there thus needing less to get them back to "normal"...what i mean is that the since the M/C is still sealed, the system is still under pressure....versus when you are trying to fill it, you have to 'build up' that pressure...i don't know if that makes ANY sense...makes sense in my head ....

i think my downfall was not considering the fact that i would have to get the calipers pushed out and seated against the rotors....i was essentially priming and bleeding the calipers with them pushed all the way in...the vaccum nor the lever were going to make them "pop" back into place, i need to work the lever to get them in place so i have the right volume of fluid in the system...

it makes sense because with the bleeder screwed shut....as i pumped the brake (when they were squishy and NO braking at all)...the fluid slowly drained telling me the pistons were moving and filling the cavity behind the pistons...i slowly added more and the brakes SLOWLY began to have some power....that is where i am at now...with a LITTLE braking power, but not nearly under the pressure it needs...

i think i just need to be patience and continue to work the lever until they are seated as far as i can, they re-bleed the system....then all should be fine....

it's amazing what you learn when you are doing something for the first time...

try bleeding the M/C, you may just have some air stuck in there, Its never been an issue on my F4i but I have to bleed my SV's M/C every time to get all the air out

you know, i read about bleeding the M/C....how the heck do you bleed the M/C??

it would make sense since i bled the whole damn thing dry to take off the lines and calipers...is it easy?

just squeeze the lever and loosen the banjo bolt going into the M/C, let a decent bit of fluid come out and close it, not the prettiest way to do it but it works.  Make sure you don't let brake fluid drip onto your front tire or brake rotors, a nice big rag is a good idea

huh...alright...then i am assuming...re-torque the banjo...it isn't going to screw with crush washers will it considering i already torque it down once? i wouldn't think so, but at this point, i want to know what i am getting into...haha...

they'll be fine, I've done it many times
 

thanks...alright, i think i'll be fine once i do that and re-bleed....now that i actually have an understand of what the heck is going on...i need to get some more dot4 though as i have run through a ton of it probably priming WAY too much...lol...oh well what can you do...

you know it's just wierd to mess with the brakes...knowing how important they are...i will be very happy when they are bled an stop on a dime..plus i can't wait to see how good the ss lines feel...

galfer actually sells a MC bolt with a bleeder screw on it!
are you leaking any fluids out of anywhere?
the stock bleeder screws have a film over them that helps it seal. loctite sells similar stuff, but i'm not sure if you can get it in autoparts store. speedbleeders has the same stuff. brake fluid actually eats up teflon tape.

  Just some info, (learned this from my car mechanic days, and it's hella important. Really funny if you forget, so long as you don't have to pay for damages if you hit something! haha Anyways...) You always have to "pump up" your calipers after you have compressed them. In this situation, it was for when you had them powdercoated... other times you may see this is if and when you need to replace brake pads and you compress the calipers so the new pads will fit. As your apply your brakes, the lever compresses the master cylinder piston, pushing brake fluid down to the calipers, causing them to move "out" and force the brakepads friction material to crimp down on the rotors... this friction, of course, stops your bike. However, when you let OFF the brake, only 1 (sometimes two) small forces pull the pads away from your rotors. These forces are 1. The square cut seal that goes around the piston(s), 2. Sometimes you have small metal plates or very weak metal "springs" that provide VERY minimul "out" pressure. The idea is that you only have to get the pads SLIGHTLY off the rotors to allow them to continue to spin freely. This small amount of backwards pressure to "release" your brakes assists in, as your brakepads wear down, you don't have to press more and more on the brakes. The caliper itself holds more fluid (that was originally in the master cylinder) and the piston stays further out.

Now... this all matters to you because, given that you have the pistons in the calipers compressed fully, it will take MANY (like you said) compresses of the lever to pump enough fluid (in very small amounts) to fill what's usually in the calipers. Make sure that, while you're "pumping up" your brakes, you don't let your master cylinder go dry!!!! This will pump serious air back into your lines and be very annoying.

Anyway, enough of the "this is how it works" (for anyone who was curious), here's my advice. Manually bleed the brakes. Don't rely on the vaccum pump. I'm not saying that the pump isn't a good option, but manually bleeding the brakes under pressure works when vaccum bleeders fail. (in my experience)

For those that don't know how to do a manual bleed... it can be done by one person with some good stands and good reach, but I would rec. using 2 people. --One person needs to "pump up" the brakes several times (squeeze the lever 5 or so times in a row) then HOLD the brake ON. (You don't have to mash it, just apply steady, even pressure). --Person number 2 then opens the bleeder screw. The fluid will bubble and spew out, and person one will feel the lever go all the way to the clip-on. That's good! Person one, DO NOT RELEASE the brake lever!!! --Person two, once the bubbles and the fluid stops coming out, tightens the bleeder down again. Person one now releases the lever and "pumps" the lever back up. (As the lever is "pumped" you should feel a gradual increase in pressure) ~~Repeat this as many times as you need for each caliper until you get a good firm lever feel (after pumping them back up after a 'bleed') and no bubbles when person two cracks the bleeder open with person one applying steady pressure.(I go for 2-3 "clean" bleeds to call it good)

Okay... done now. haha.

thanks lrn2go...that is essentially what i figued out/knew about brakes....i didn't realize as i was doing the priming and bleeding that my caliper pistons were compressed...i just failed to remember that part....so after having bled the brakes and primed em, i was stumped of the lack of pressure...

the 'MANY' part is sooooo true....so here's an update...i went down last night and pumped the brake lever about a 1000 more times.......and sure enough they are getting firmer...to test my theory...i touched the calipe and pad as i pumped the brake lever and sure enough, i could feel the brake pads squeezing against the rotor with no leakage or anything like that...that being said, i know the brakes, M/C and everything works....the brakes now actually work when i ride the bike...granted they are still not up to snuff but they work....i think what i will do now is re-bleed the brakes with some more dot4 and finish it up with the pumping method....

the whole thing boils down to most tutorials don't address the issue where the system is dry AND the pistons are compressed...that adds an extra step of getting the pistons "un-compressed" before you can ACTUALLY prime/bleed the brakes....

now that i understand what is going on, shouldn't be an issue...the only thing that i am really pissed about through the whole process is that i wasted a good amount of dot4, i now need to get more....and because i was bleeding and priming so much, i got some fluid on my powder and it dulled it up...and i also scuffed my caliper a bit...no biggie though...a little nail polish should fix her up...

i let you know how it goes when i get them finished-finished...