Riding Question: Turning

I was once told to never turn "on the bar", meaning don't countersteer. Problem is, as my riding style has developed, I find myself doing this much more. When I learned to ride a bike, I was taught to push down on the side of the bar I want to turn toward, but it feels more natural to start a bike's lean by pushing forward on the bar on the side in which I want to turn. Either way, I always use my body weight and lean during the turn. What is the "correct" way to turn? Or is this just a matter of personal preference? One more thing, I was told that turning on the bar causes the front tire to wear unevenly. Is this true?

Sounds almost like the same thing your talking about.  I think they teach the push / pull.  If your turning right, push on the right side grip and pull on the left grip.  That will make the bike start to turn / lean.

quote:

meaning don't countersteer

 
push right-go right, that is countersteering and that is the correct way. Unless you are going slowly, like on a bicycle you will naturally lean a little, and then a little more. Make sure you do all your braking in a straight line (at least for a while) and accellerate gently as you make the turn.
 

quote:

  I always use my body weight and lean during the turn

 
I could be wrong about this, but the bodyweight shift happens because of you trying to get the weight to the inside of the bike during the turn, not because you want the weight to turn the bike for you. Your pushing arm will do the work. Sometimes you gotta push HARD, I've heard of people bending bars in the old days.

I'll chime in on this...

When you "turn"  Lean comes naturally due to the bike coming off center and breeching the crown of the tire regardless of where that crown rides on the radius of the tread.  Depending on where your crown is most pronounced on the tire, will determine where your bike tends to "fall in" to a turn, and opposite when breaks are applied, resulting in the bike wanting to "stand up."  The more of a turn you must make, you lean further to keep center of gravity as low as possible, all the while, trying to keep a constant contact patch of tire.  This leaning improves contact patch, therefore allowing for more stability through the apex, maintaining rider confidence, as dictated by feedback of bike to rider through turn.

My interpretation of steering has always been to push on right clip-on and you will turn right.  This pushing effect is actually pushing the bar away from you toward the opposite direction of which you want to turn.  So, in affect, you are pushing left to turn right.

I'm not an expert, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express.  lol.  This is what I've studied, applied to every day riding, track days, spirited riding etc for many years.

the push-right go-right is the way to go. I also use my right foot and apply pressure on the peg it gives you more turn power, I guess. So push right with your right hand and right foot, and lean with the bike. Thats just what a highway patrol moto cop, told me in a class i took awhile back, it works well.
 
In a slow trun your "supposed" to do the same thing but instead of leaning with the bike you lean the bike and keep your body upright.

you need to do both...you actually do both...whether you realize it or not.
bad to weigh the inside peg...hook out with outside peg. if you want to use weight to get the bike down, push off with outside foot to get your weight out, not inside. you don't want to do any type of loading on the inside...imagine a leaning top...spinning happily tilted...now imagine there's a peg there for you to weigh...if it's on the inside (the side the top is leaning)...the weight will tend to push out the bottom of the top...
now imagine you riding, and weighing the inside peg...
now imagine your brain on drugs.

just drive straight?

The instructor says to turn right,  Look Right, Press Right. I had trouble with this concept until I actually applied it and was shocked as hell when I felt it happen. One of things the one instructor did was to hold the front wheel (bike off of course) in between his legs and told us to look right, press right. When i did it, he said, don't lean...just push with the right. So, we would go through the motions of looking to the right and then pushing with our right arm. Repeated for the left. The other thing during the class that they instructed us to do was to keep our knees pressed in around the gas tank. I think it helps with balance or something. I actually feel more confident with my knees pressed against the tank. Apparently, dragging knee is used for racing to help give the rider a sense of how low they can go before dragging parts of the bike (plus you need special gear to do that) and causing loss of control, I guess.  Braking should be done prior to the turn so that you take full advantage of the amount of traction you have available for the action you are taking. Braking on the curve could cause the bike to come out from under you.

Now, I only have 86 miles experience on my F2. This is my first bike. The only other bike I rode was during the Motorcycle Safety Course), which I highly recommend taking.  I've included a video on the subject. There's a few more on Youtube if you search for motorcycle Countersteering.


Videos on the subject (note these are not a substitute from taking the Motorcycle Safety Course):

Countersteering 101
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C848R9xWrjc&mode=related&search=

I think the advice to never turn on the bar, means you shouldn't have too much of your body weight on your hands when turning - you need to support yourself with your lower body.  I found this video very helpful.  By rotating your hips into the turn, you press your outside knee into the tank.  For me  this makes me feel more anchored and secure when hanging off, and also helps push the bike into the lean:
 
Part 1(turning):  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxODoscChNo
 
Part 2: (braking): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxb5nRufuZ8

One thing that I have to keep realizing is that when they say push right to turn right, they mean push down as in lean the bike to the right. If you follow their example literally, especially with anything other than a sportbike, you'll turn the bars to the left and wipe out.

Actually you really do need to push on the bars, especially at higher speeds on sharp corners. Just leaning won't cut it.

I noticed something no one has mentioned.  Look ahead into the curve (Good practice to also use when driving straight).  On a course you can see to the end of curves (for the most part) but on the street there are many curves that cannot be seen all the way through.  Look as far ahead into the curve as you can.  You'll find that your head is turning and when you come out of the curve, the bike and body come back into alignment with the head.  What are yall’s thoughts on this?

You are countersteering even if you don't intend to, that's the only way a 2 wheeled vehicle turns at speed, being aware of countersteering and how to do it properly can only help.

As far as the push/pull thing goes, I don't even think of that.  I look to my exit point in the turn and my hands follow my eyes...I guess, it's not a conscious thing with me anymore.  I do ride with a light grip on my bars, I prefer to grip my knees for stability and stay clear of any forceful things on the bars. 
 
When I turn, my weight is forward, but not all on my hands.  I put most weight on the tank.  When entering the corner, I weight the inside peg (usually by sticking my knee out for the wing effect) then as you feel it get into the lean, put weight on the outside peg somewhat gradually, increasing as speed increases.  I dunno if this is the right thing for street, but I have been doing it for so long on a dirtbike I can't stop.  I think the concept is the same.
 
Random side question:  I have NEVER used a steering dampner.  Do these things actual help?  I don't often get wiggle bar, do I really need one? 

steering damper do help WHEN you get tank slappers or ride in crappy uneven roads...but what helps more is properly adjusted and serviced suspension. otherwise they just sit there and make steering tight.
 
too many people get one because they think it's cool or to cover up an improperly set up suspension.
 
so do you really need one...but it's good to have one...
 
if you run hard on the track or twists, then you should get one...

nobody's mentioned something very important! You can push pull, twist or tango. Knowing how to make a bike turn is only 10% of taking a curve. You need to know how to read your turn, what line to take through, and to keep it smooth. There are hundreds of books on the subject. But I recommend attending a class(road-racing). The elements you will learn will make you a much safer and more confident rider.

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ORIGINAL: Hedp203

You need to know how to read your turn, what line to take through, and to keep it smooth. There are hundreds of books on the subject. But I recommend attending a class(road-racing). The elements you will learn will make you a much safer and more confident rider.

 
Excellent point!  One of our members just went to his first trackday and said he learned a TON!!!  There are a lot of ways to turn better, but having the right line will definately help.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hedp203

nobody's mentioned something very important! You can push pull, twist or tango. Knowing how to make a bike turn is only 10% of taking a curve. You need to know how to read your turn, what line to take through, and to keep it smooth. There are hundreds of books on the subject. But I recommend attending a class(road-racing). The elements you will learn will make you a much safer and more confident rider.

 
Good suggestion. Planning on it. See Post:
 http://www.cbrforum.com/m_367048/tm.htm
 
 

quote:

ORIGINAL: MikeInCtown

One thing that I have to keep realizing is that when they say push right to turn right, they mean push down as in lean the bike to the right. If you follow their example literally, especially with anything other than a sportbike, you'll turn the bars to the left and wipe out.

Mike, first, you have a lot more experience than I have in this...so I still could be wrong. I thought the same thing as you all through the MSF class that I took. It wasn't until I watched the first vid below that I decided to try just turning the handlebars to the right to turn left. I was shocked as hell to "feel" it work. Give it a try at about 30 mph. I found that I didn't have to lean...the bike did it all for me.


Countersteering 101: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C848R9xWrjc
Here is another video demonstrating it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8IdTq3_3WI