RE: Correct way of braking...?
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RE: Correct way of braking...? - 9/8/2006 11:34:01 AM
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Jaybird180
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I know that practicing what I was taught in MSF saved my life once, in particular when a drunk driver wrecked 15 feet in front of me. I dind't panic an held my speed to maintain distance but keeping enough speed to dodge the inevitable. There are times when one or the other or both is appropriate. Experience will teach that. It's the reason the brakes are not linked on modern sportbikes. Manufacturers have tried it. In particular the Blackbird has the LBS, but I believe it to be dangerous.
Love your sig Acumen
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RE: Correct way of braking...? - 9/8/2006 11:35:43 AM
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spdrmns
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my point was that for an experianced rider to use the front brake only is fine! BUT not usable in most situations! Its really hard to turn while your ON ONLY the front wheel, you cant do an endo in the rain or at least i wouldnt wana try! and if your on lots of different bikes like i am, i train myself to use both! the only thing the front brake is good for is straight line stops. I agree that its the fastest in a straight line stop! but you dont see hayden or rossi using only the front brake when there coming off the strait and into turn 1 with there back wheel in the air!
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RE: Correct way of braking...? - 9/8/2006 12:34:22 PM
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ninetyfivehp
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i use about 90/10 F/R except in twisties where i use more rear brake to settle the chassis and scrub speed
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RE: Correct way of braking...? - 9/8/2006 12:42:31 PM
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Blackdog F4i
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Again you guys are overlooking the fundamentals.
1. When you brake the bike wants to stand up. This widens your turn.
2. You should complete your braking BEFORE you turn.
#2 of course does not apply to a racetrack where late braking is required to outbrake an opponent and get the line.
quote:
but you dont see hayden or rossi using only the front brake when there coming off the strait and into turn 1 with there back wheel in the air!
Are you guessing or do you think you know. I think you are guessing and haven't read many interviews by racers about technique.
I wish I could find some articles by the masters demonstrating their braking techniques. Alas I think I have spent about all the effort I want to on this thread.
Racers USE THE REAR TO SET THE CHASSIS not to brake. It may seem like the same thing, but it is not. You can't honestly tell me that you have never seen a championship rider lift the rear braking off a fast straight. If so, then you havent been watching enough racing. They don't lift it going INTO the turn because you have to dial off the brake to turn the bike.
Riding in the wet poses a whole different set of problems and you do use the rear brake a lot more. This is mainly due to the fact that in the wet locking the rear is a whole lot better than locking the front which can lowside you quickly.
Try this sometime. Aim at a corner, get your braking done first, then slowly come off the brakes and flick the bike into the corner. You will see that the bike turns in a WHOLE LOT faster than it did on the brakes. Now if you perfect it, you will be coming off the brakes AS you flick it in. You dial off the brakes as you dial in lean (trail brake). This way you always keep a balance in the forces acting on the bike. Now when you add the rear brake you are applying the rear a fraction of a second before the front. This transfers weight up front and tensions the chassis. As you apply the front brake you can dial off the back because it's not able to do it's job anymore with the force being transferred to the front.
See now we have transitioned from street riding to racing. There is BIG difference. There is no need to brake in a turn on the street unless you are in an emergency situation. Braking in a turn is EXACTLY when you DO NOT want to use the rear brake. Braking while leaned over is best left to the track or at least carving backroads.
Because you have gotten away with it dosent make it proper technique.
**edit**
I am done now on this thread. Thanks for listening.
< Message edited by Blackdog F4i -- 9/8/2006 12:44:44 PM >
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RE: Correct way of braking...? - 9/8/2006 1:13:31 PM
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jjbtao
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Okay, I've just seen this thread and feel compelled to throw in a couple of cents.
This topic is about the "proper way to brake" and there are countless circumstances that require braking, many of them unique and different than any other. Wet/dry/gravel/straigh-line/cornering/panic situations...
I think we all understand that each requires different technique and unless you have vast experience with all of them, you're going to be using "improper" method at some point or another.
The simple reality is that there is no single "PROPER" way to brake. The umbrella philosophy of using the front way more than the rear comes from physics, which tells us that in a straight line, the front tire will give the majority of the braking power due to the transfer of weight to the front. Take your old bicycle out of the garage and play around in the street for awhile. See what stops you fastest. Front or rear. Look at cars that have powerful disk brakes in the front and weak little drums in the rear, or our motorcycles that have huge twin rotors up front and a small single rotor in the rear. The front is good, use it a lot, most of us are aware of that. Unfortunately, that umbrella philosophy goes out the window, to an extent, when we throw in all the factors that make every situation unique...
In cornering, for example, we could argue for days about braking in the middle of a turn. Again, physics tells us it is bad, as Acumen pointed out, but that assumes that the tire is already at or very near its grip limit. The reality for the vast majority of riders and corners is that we are very rarely anywhere near that limit which allows some space for the tire to decellerate the bike without passing its capabilities. To say that a rider should NEVER brake in a corner is both true and false and needs more conditions to it. If a rider is at the limit of the tire, they should not, but if they're not at that limit, it might save their life. Of course s/he should have set up properly in the first place, but it's not necessarily over if you enter a corner too fast to make it through.
Likewise, STABBING THE BRAKES WILL PUT YOU DOWN! In a corner, this is true and when people talk about braking in a corner, I doubt they are talking about doing that. When riding in a straight line you can lock the rear with no problem. It accomplishes nothing, but it won't put you down.
I'm not trying to be a smart@ss, I just want to point out that braking is a complex act, as is all of riding. All we need to say to new riders is to focus on the front brake to do the majority of your stopping. Always be smooth, know that if you ride past your limits there's a good chance you'll end up in trouble. Be smart, be safe, read a lot, listen a lot practice a lot, and try to avoid listening when people start talking in absolutes. Few things are ever absolutes.
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RE: Correct way of braking...? - 9/8/2006 3:55:19 PM
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discohouse
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you use both brakes, that's the way its done. On a sportbike simply set your rear brake up so that it CANNOT lock up. I can jump on mine from 10 ft in the air and it will not lock up. It's that simple folks. This is from Sport Riding Techniques.
Braking in a corner can be done, but only by experienced riders. Brake BEFORE the corner.
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RE: Correct way of braking...? - 9/8/2006 4:26:16 PM
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jjbtao
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I hear what you're saying about braking during a corner but to say that it can only be done by experienced riders simply isn't true. If you're on a racetrack and at the absolute limit, completely laid over, pushing your tires to their breaking point and you touch the brake to slow down, you will exceed the capabilities of the tire and you will go down, so I agree with you there.
HOWEVER. The second day I had my bike I went into a corner too fast for my comfort, but because my comfort was WAYYYY below the limits of the bike and the tires, I was able to gently ease on the brake, keep it in the corner and ride through. Had I not braked, I would have gone directly into a guard rail and off a cliff. I am really, really happy that I braked in that corner. That was MY SECOND day riding. I certainly wouldn't say that it can only be done by experienced riders. It can be done, but only if you're well within the limits. Most of us never reach the limits of the bike which means it is often possible.
Again, I'm just trying to make the point that we're passing around a lot of absolute, "blanket statements" that taken the wrong way could be really bad advice.
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RE: Correct way of braking...? - 9/8/2006 4:43:21 PM
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CBRchica
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read this...
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RE: Correct way of braking...? - 9/8/2006 4:45:17 PM
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discohouse
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jjbtao
HOWEVER. The second day I had my bike I went into a corner too fast for my comfort, but because my comfort was WAYYYY below the limits of the bike and the tires,
Most singe bike wrecks are caused by inexperienced riders going into a curve too fast, getting nervous and braking hard.... should have braked 1st and took the corner at a comfortable speed. You got lucky- thank God and glad to hear you are OK. Better though.... when you commit to a turn, commit for real, look through the turn, get into the lean and go.... much better than braking mid turn. there are always execptions to any rule though. 8 out 10 new riders will wreck if braking hard in a turn i would guess ( at more than 10 MPH).... anyone else agree?
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RE: Correct way of braking...? - 9/8/2006 5:25:52 PM
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jjbtao
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I agree completely and I fully hear what you're saying. The key is the difference between braking and braking HARD.
I fully agree that the thing to do is get all of your braking out of the way before you turn, unless you're riding at 100%, in which case you can balance between the last bit of braking and the first bit of turn in (as Blackdog stated).
I'm not really interested in getting into the fine dynamics of cornering and braking. My point is just that every situation requires a different technique and that there is no single rule that applies in every situation. My example of braking in a corner was meant to illustrate this. I am not in any way advocating braking in corners, I'm just saying that there are situations, no matter how rare, where doing something not generally recommended might actually save you. It is better to practice (again, like Blackdog said) in a variety of situations so that you have some sense of what will happen when you're out in the real world. It's really just about broadening your array of skills. If you say you'll never brake in a corner, you're tossing aside the possibility of building that skill. Again, just to be clear, if I'm riding hard, laying it over, pushing the tires, I'm NOT going to touch the brake, but if I'm riding in a group at 75% and the guy in front of me slows at an apex, I'm going to be happy that I practiced easing on the brake in a corner because it's going to keep us both upright. Just stay within your limits and the limits of your bike and tires.
I am really happy that I had the opportunity to save myself by braking in that corner on my second day of riding--not because it was "good technique", but because it kept me on the road and showed me that even though people say "only experienced riders" can brake in a corner, in many real-world circumstances, most riders actually can ease on the brakes in the corner without instantly going down, like is so often said.
Perhaps I am more skilled than I give credit, having been an avid downhill mountain biker for many, many years, where precise braking is essential and every single corner is truly unique, with rocks, roots, mud, sand, holes and whatever else... but I think that anyone with a bit of common sense and a desire to survive is capable of bending rules when appropriate and avoiding those absolute bits of advice that have words "always" and "never" in them.
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RE: Correct way of braking...? - 9/8/2006 5:59:09 PM
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canadianF4i
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+1 For using both brakes. I don't want to get into an arguement because you're not going to change my mind so I'll just give my reasons.
(1) 3 brakes are better than 2. More surface area = more friction = quicker stops (common sense)
(2) If the rear tire has any contact at all with the road it will help slow you down if you use it to help you stop. The more rubber on the road the better no matter what you're doing. The point has been made that when braking hard with the front your rear is not in contact with the road. To this I say; I have never braked so hard with my front brake while emergency braking to lift my rear wheel (stoppies excluded ). If you feel the need to brake that hard it's an indication that you are following too close and/or not paying attention and shouldn't be riding. Common sense says if you apply too much brake to either wheel under certain circumstances it can lock.
(3) If you were to try braking hard using only your front brake in a corner you would have trouble steering no matter what vehicle you are operating. I generally use my rear while cornering, front is used only if I can't shed enough speed quick enough without risking locking the rear and as little as possible.
(4) Another point was made about weight transfer, using the rear brake reduces the amount of dive in the front end so steering isn't so heavy and you can still manouever easily. Not to mention countering that oh shit! I'm going over the bars feeling.
(5) The manufacturer thought it was a good idea to install a rear brake and I don't remember seeing anything in the manual that said "WARNING! REAR BRAKE ONLY TO BE USED FOR TRAIL BRAKING". I don't think there is any blanket rule as to how much to use it (notice I did not say when) but my rule is apply it just enough to help me stop and help keep the bike somewhat level but not enough to lock it.
The only way to figure how much of each brake to use is practice which if your a newb braking should get as much attention as steering. Find a large open area and experiment braking from different speeds, emergency and non, differant surfaces, etc,. In other words know your bike and yourself and what you/it's capable of or not, that way there's more safe braking and less panic braking.
I don't claim to be some GP racer or the best street rider but this is what works for me. I have never laid a bike down in my many years of riding, knock on wood, and regularly ride at a moderate to fast pace but always aware and almost always defensively.
Now, let the flaming begin.
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RE: Correct way of braking...? - 9/8/2006 7:20:03 PM
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DThompson
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If i am coming into a corner to fast I will use both brakes a split second before the corner and use the rear brake after that in the corner if its still to fast. Than I will hit the gas and pull out of the corner about as hard as I came into it.
Braking in the corners can be done easily. and I did mean by progressive braking. not smashing the brakes all at once. Thats just plain stupid.
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RE: Correct way of braking...? - 9/8/2006 10:38:25 PM
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FastCRX
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what do you professionally race?
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