RE: cam chain tensioner-again

CBR Forum Classifieds News Photo Gallery Search Member List Timeslips Contact Sponsors Register Login

RE: cam chain tensioner-again

Printable Version

CBR >> Past CBR Models >> CBR 1000F "Hurricane" >> RE: cam chain tensioner-again

Page: << < prev 1 [2] 3 next > >>

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

RE: cam chain tensioner-again - 12/31/2005 7:24:04 PM

chainsaw

Posts: 20
Joined: 10/12/2005
Status: offline

if it aint broke dont fix it! i have read many stories about the cam chain and no matter what every one does the the noise comes back. all you can do is enjoy the bike or buy a new one

(in reply to MarkR)

Post #: 16

RE: cam chain tensioner-again - 1/5/2006 5:21:28 AM

dad

Posts: 296
Joined: 11/6/2005
From: Pittsburgh Pennsylvania
Status: offline

Mine's a 1990 at 122,000 and has had new tensioners every 43-45K. It's also had two chains and two sets of all replaceable guides. The front one requires pulling the head to replace so wasn't done.

Part of the reason I did the chains is they're only $45 and I do my own work. The stretch evident when laying flat (after being broken to remove) and compared to a new one was only about .010"/.015" over the whole length which I would estimate to be about 2-3 feet. I measured the tensioner plunger travel before to remove and then again on reassembly. With a new chain and new guide, it gained about 1/8" of travel, from approximately 5/8" to 1/2".

Buy the chain aftermarket with a master. The chains I got were actually the same as OEM based on the stamped logo on the sideplates.

BTW, the motor is needing rings now. Started to show a small amount of oil consumption first around 90K at the track, continuously running at redline. It still runs well but will now actually show signs of smoking at redline and is using enough oil that I will have to add after a hard twisty ride of 500 miles or so. Also some weirdness getting into third gear occasionally. I think that's in the selector but could be fork and/or dogs, maybe a little of all three. I've accumulated the parts to rebuild it but also located a 4,700 mile motor that's going in while I mess with the other. Additionally, it's been very well maintained but also ridden very hard, routinely running 100 mile stretches at a time in the power band to redline.

I found this bike 5 years ago with only 900 miles on it. Yes, less than 1,000.

I'm committed to this thing for the long haul. I absolutely LOVE its all around ability.

Hope that history helps somebody.

< Message edited by dad -- 1/5/2006 5:35:35 AM >

(in reply to chainsaw)

Post #: 17

RE: cam chain tensioner-again - 1/7/2006 11:17:55 PM

DRam

Posts: 390
Joined: 7/21/2005
Status: offline

Hey Dad: how do you determine when your chain is stretched and when you can just replace the tensioner and guides? If you're only finding .010 to .015 stretch over the length of the chain it doubtful that the 'pull it up from the sprocket' procedure would tell anything.

BTW, you're making me feel good. I bought my '91 last spring with 26,000 miles on it and was wondering what one could expect for lifespan. Hope mine goes as far as yours.

(in reply to dad)

Post #: 18

RE: cam chain tensioner-again - 1/8/2006 3:35:28 AM

dad

Posts: 296
Joined: 11/6/2005
From: Pittsburgh Pennsylvania
Status: offline

Yeah, I've had nothing but fun with this bike and outside of chain tensioners, no problems that ever left me stranded or were anything that couldn't be charged off to normal wear and tear or "shit happens".

On the tensioner, when I first encountered the issue, I searched high and low including British web sites and couldn't find anything more than "it can happen anytime after 25K", and two schools of thought on the chains. One said you HAVE to do it and the other said you DON'T have to do it, each with the same big dose of conviction.

And I agree that the little chain wear evident will not show clearly with the "pull up on the sprocket" method. I don't think the wear could ever get so bad that that method would be conclusive as I think the tensioner won't take up that kind of wear without prior indication. I think it will surface as a tensioner problem long before the chain is grossly bad. JMO, never tried to prove it.

Armed with that extensive detail,

I tore into it as I described above. I did the chain because I wasn't sure and it wasn't costing me any more than the price of the chain, about $45 aftermarket. What I learned doing it is that I don't think the chain needed to be replaced, certainly not on overall wear, but was concerned that maybe it could have a stretched section that would tighten and loosen while running, causing the chain tensioner to be worked over pretty good, causing premature failure. Well, I'm suspicious that's not really the case and while the theory makes some sense, I think it's just a theory that reality won't support. Don't know for sure and didn't try to determine any more. What I did get was an 1/8" gain of travel on the plunger from the old chain AND guide. I suspect the guide was the biggest if not total source of the gain. Again, didn't try to prove that any further.

The chain's not hard to replace at all. A good chain tool with all of the various size pins and press plates is all that's needed. It's complete for drive chains too so not a bad tool to have. About $100 from Motion Pro.

What they don't describe in the instruction is proper assembly pressing. It's possible to overpress the chain plates to where there is no clearance and it's actually a tight spot. I knew it was a concern but there's not even a mention of it in the instructions. The concern isn't just the tightness but lack of clearance for lubrication to find its way to the pins, starving them for oil and causing just that link to wear badly, likely in the earliest miles of use. Lubrication likes about .002" to easily flow and a feeler gauge between the plates on the new chain showed about .010" total play for the five plate width. Not a coincidence I guess.

The step I added was to take a piece of .010" feeler stock and trim it to fit between the pins and used it to maintain that clearance between the plates on re-assembly. Pressed and staked it tight with the shim stock in place then removed it, leaving the same clearance as the rest of the factory assembled plates.

Also, on staking, it takes only a reasonable amount of pressure on the tool to deform the projecting pin the slightest amount to assure it stays together. That thing would possibly stay without even staking it as it presses pretty snug but the slightest deformation of the head assures it.

All other info to assure the cams are re-installed properly is in the service manual. I find it most comforting to turn the motor to the timing marks to stage the cams in their re-assembly position before to dismantle. It's extra comfort and assurance of not dinging a valve trying to sort it out while trying to assemble. Everything's already in place.

Got a little carried away there but hope it helps.

< Message edited by dad -- 1/8/2006 4:30:20 AM >

(in reply to DRam)

Post #: 19

RE: cam chain tensioner-again - 1/8/2006 3:26:59 PM

vet5

Posts: 6
Joined: 11/22/2005
Status: offline

yep! mine is exactlly the same,changed the chain and tensioner just before christmas and it,s still noisey not as bad as it was though so i must be on the right track.
dave.

(in reply to MarkR)

Post #: 20

RE: cam chain tensioner-again - 1/8/2006 8:14:00 PM

DRam

Posts: 390
Joined: 7/21/2005
Status: offline

Thanks for the rundown. I had planned on a tensioner this winter and was wondering if a chain was needed or not. The tensioner was out this summer - I cleaned it, lubed it and put it back in. Everything was quiet for about a thousand miles, then noisy again. I'm going to bet on it being the tensioner because the chain is an easy install if the tensioner doesn't solve the problem, and because the mechanic at our local Honda shop assures me the chain is nearly 100% certain to be okay.

(in reply to vet5)

Post #: 21

RE: cam chain tensioner-again - 1/9/2006 4:58:43 AM

Trips

Posts: 794
Joined: 3/31/2005
From: Perth (Western Australia)
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DRam

The tensioner was out this summer - I cleaned it, lubed it and put it back in. Everything was quiet for about a thousand miles, then noisy again.

Hi dude just a couple of questions,

When you took the tensioner out was there a lot of gunk in there?

Did it look like the tensioner could have been rebuilt by using a stiffer spring and/or preloading the spring?

Do you think it would be possible to enlarge the oil feed to it?

Thanks
Rob

_____________________________

Remember the light at the end of the tunnel may be an oncoming train!

(in reply to DRam)

Post #: 22

RE: cam chain tensioner-again - 1/10/2006 12:55:21 AM

DRam

Posts: 390
Joined: 7/21/2005
Status: offline

Trips:

There was a bunch of gunk in it. Actually I didn't take it apart as it is rivited. I worked it in and out until it stopped pushing oil out, then immersed it in solvent and worked it until it stopped squirting gunk out. That is, until I could work clean solvent through it and have the solvent come out clean. I then let it soak overnight and worked it more in the morning. To lube it I worked WD40 into it, then light oil, then the 10-40 I run in the bike. To shim the spring it looks like you'd have to drill the rivits out and disassemble the whole thing. As to enlarging the oil feed - I don't know. You could try. I didn't even look to see where the oil feed was, but suspect it is in the trough on top of the CCT as the instructions for replacing the CCT say to fill that trough with oil. I might be wrong, but I think the CCT works somewhat like a hydraulic lifter - as the tensioning rod extends it pulls oil through a one-way valve that then keeps the rod from moving back. I'd guess it fails when either the one-way valve or seals around the tensioning rod fail and allow oil to leak out relieving pressure on the cam chain. I have heard of shimming the spring with washers. The person who posted that reported that it worked for his bike. He didn't say how long it lasted, though. If you try it, post back and let us know how it works.

(in reply to Trips)

Post #: 23

RE: cam chain tensioner-again - 1/10/2006 1:22:19 AM

dad

Posts: 296
Joined: 11/6/2005
From: Pittsburgh Pennsylvania
Status: offline

The description above of the tensioner is good. At the time I needed the second tensioner, I tried taking it out and cleaning it. Filled with oil, it seems like it should be fine. All of the functions are there and appear normal. Readily fills from the little "cup" reservoir built onto it, extends rapidly, returns very slowly and with a fair effort. Much like a hydraulic lifter as described. MUST be OK, methinks. After all of that work, put it together and it was the same. Rattled a little cold, quieted down after warm-up. Over time it gets worse. Took it all apart... again......put in a new one, quiet.

I've drilled the rivets out of an old one to see what I could see. It's a crudely simple piston with just a close fit, no sealing rings. The check valve is in the piston if I remember correctly. I was considering modifying it but decided against that. There's soooo many cycles on that part over many miles that I fear an error, like getting it just a little too tight, will tear up the other parts prematurely. I also considered trying to make it manual but access is almost non-existant, PLUS... I decided that 40,000 plus miles was really OK considering that a valve adjustment was something I had to do anyway, and the additional work, now that I knew what I was doing, was only an extra half hour for tensioner alone or an hour or two for the chain. What sucks is the tensioner part is over $100!

< Message edited by dad -- 1/10/2006 1:25:49 AM >

(in reply to DRam)

Post #: 24

RE: cam chain tensioner-again - 1/10/2006 3:14:38 AM

MarkR

Posts: 846
Joined: 8/20/2005
From: Gold Coast, Australia
Status: online

I would be happy to pay 100 bucks, Mine cost about $300 in Australia, maybe next time, I should get you to send me one as the exchange rate would make it about $150+freight.

(in reply to dad)

Post #: 25

RE: cam chain tensioner-again - 1/10/2006 11:01:17 AM

dad

Posts: 296
Joined: 11/6/2005
From: Pittsburgh Pennsylvania
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MarkR

I would be happy to pay 100 bucks, Mine cost about $300 in Australia, maybe next time, I should get you to send me one as the exchange rate would make it about $150+freight.

Here's an online price. $98.93 US. Cheaper than list price by a decent margin.

http://www.mrcycles.com/fiche_section_detail.asp

< Message edited by dad -- 1/10/2006 11:02:57 AM >

(in reply to MarkR)

Post #: 26

RE: cam chain tensioner-again - 1/12/2006 12:47:46 AM

DRam

Posts: 390
Joined: 7/21/2005
Status: offline

Hoo-haw!! Thanks for the link. Beats any price I've seen.

DRam

(in reply to dad)

Post #: 27

RE: cam chain tensioner-again. HELP, HELP - 2/5/2006 12:45:06 AM

hvu

Posts: 2
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline

Hi DAD,

I am new to this forum and I just bought 1987 Huricane *CBR* 1000cc last week and the engine has very loud noise and I understand that it is the CCT, it is easy for me to locate it on the 1990 CBR 600cc F1 and 1997 CBR 600cc F3 but it cost me 4 hours today still cannot locate it on the 87 Huricanne 1000cc, could you tell me where I can locate it, I do not have the manual for this bike though but I have the manual for the F3. And I check the APE for the manual CCT but it does not have the one for this model and the guy at APE did not know either. Please help.
Thanks

(in reply to ozrider)

Post #: 28

RE: cam chain tensioner-again. HELP, HELP - 2/5/2006 11:46:25 AM

slowpoke

Posts: 518
Joined: 8/6/2005
From: Denver, Colorado
Status: offline

The CCT for the 600's is external, but for the 1000's it is under the valve cover. It is between the cams and under the cam chain. It's not that difficult, but you need the manual to do the job correctly, torque values, and to retime the cams.

(in reply to hvu)

Post #: 29