Lean Angle - Scraping Pegs

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Lean Angle - Scraping Pegs - Help

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Lean Angle - Scraping Pegs - Help - 11/5/2006 2:18:39 AM

pixel 6

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Kind of an odd topic, but couldn't think of a better way to word it.

Ok, so here's the down low... (And this is a bit long winded before it gets to my actual question... just lots of qualifying details...)

Let's see. I've been riding off and on for 12 years. After crashing and totaling my 05 R1 earlier this year, I bought a 2001 CBR 929 used. After looking at some mountain videos a few months back, I noticed that my body was leaned off the bike in turns, but my bike's lean angle was almost non existant.

So with this, and having a full suit, I decided it was time to learn to put a knee down. After a day of practicing in a huge local parking lot, I could get my pucks to the ground on both sides. Having noticed an amazing difference in my personal "tilt meter", I decided it was time to try a track.

Well, any of you from CO know that most of our tracks have disappeared over the last year, and that left 3 tracks. 2 real, this 1 mile long go-kart track that they let people take bikes on.

So I get together a group of friends, and we keep hitting up this track. Right away on day 1, I was able to get my knees down and felt comfortable with my lean angle.

Every time I go to the track I like to practice something new... Last time to the track I played around with trail braking alot, and got fairly comfortable with transfering my traction from brakin, to leaning. No crashes or problems there.

So after that track day probably 2 months ago, I decided I needed to learn how to blip the throttle on down shifting. I must say that I use rev matching in my daily riding now... couldn't imagine it any other way.

So I go back to the track today, and put it all together... nice lean angles, late braking, blipping the throttle, trail braking... it all felt great.

Until.

I'm in a left hand sweeper, my knee guides me to the ground... and I hear metalic scrape. ??? Screws on my boots? Was that my footpeg? huh?

I pit. Take a look at my bike, and notice that I had infact scraped off a bit of my footpeg. Now these are not the stock pegs... they are kinda sleek, and are like low profile, tapering off as they go to the ends... In other words, they are not only essentially higher than the stock ones, they have no feelers.

I go back out... Scrape on the left... huh... then later that session, scrape on the right. WTF?

We get 1 last lap, and my friends are by the pit timing me. I go thru a quick "s" turn, and start laying over to the left when I feel my bike disengage 1st gear and click into neutral. I put it in second gear to correct, and finish my lap like normal.

Upon further examination after pitting, I did infact hit my shift lever on the ground, slipping it out of gear. (still on standard shifting, not gp yet.) I then look, and notice a new scrape on my stater cover!!!

WTF.

OK, now since I've only had a few months with my knee to the ground, I'm not sure how to take this.

But it basically appears like I'm leaning the bike over... my knee hits the ground, and I know about how much lean angle I have left... Only today, it seemed like I was still very comfortable leaning the bike over far enough, than I hit my footpegs, shifter, and stater cover... and upon further examination... my kick stand.

So this long winded bit leads me to my question... How much is too much? Have I essentially used up all my available lean angle without lowsiding? Or is that lean angle available to me if I had a more race ready setup... ie, no kick stand, higher rear sets etc. The only reason I'm having conflict with this, is that the bike still feels like it's on rails. I actually feel like I could bring the bike over a bit more, without it washing out on me.

Is this my lack of experience on a track thinking this? I don't know. I just feel like after comparing how I rode every bike before this one... I thought I was at 70% of what the bike could do... the

Post #: 1

RE: Lean Angle - Scraping Pegs - Help - 11/5/2006 9:03:41 AM

gixxereater

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I would be shocked if you have found the absolute limit this bike has to offer. First off, if you are scraping stock pegs, the bike is about as far over as it should go. Aftermarket rear sets I would think even more so. Is your suspension set up properly? Proper sag to start with? If not, set that, it may be riding too low. Your form, you may have a knee down, but can you get off the bike more? I would guess you arent leaning off all the way. Is your head in line with your inside mirror going through a corner and from there, your entire torso should be in line (straight). I'm sure the bike has more to give with the proper set up. You could try different rear sets, but eventually you will run off of the inside of the tire and either shit yourself......or crash and shit yourself. I would check the suspension before anything else.

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RE: Lean Angle - Scraping Pegs - Help - 11/5/2006 12:33:13 PM

pixel 6

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Pics from day 1 getting a knee down.

Right turn:
http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/8903/dsc00524es0.jpg

Left turn:
http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/6822/dsc00526le0.jpg

Both of these pics are from a couple of months ago, before I put any time on the track. After getting feedback from other track riders, they said that my right turn looked good, but my left turn I had my body a bit misaligned and hanging off too much.

I've worked on that on the track and both look more like my right hand turns now... only quite a bit lower. Part of it was just having a liner for my pants, to let my legs have a bit more flexability without the leather sticking to my legs. That was not letting me get a spread on the pants at the groin area.

About to go ride now, but I'll see about posting up some pics more recently... I think my friend has some from the time before last at the track.

As far as suspension... My sag is set properly (about the mid point of travel once I'm on it with gear), and I use just about all of my compression travel without bottoming out. Having had suspension "problems" on previous bikes, I know that this one is setup exacly how I like. It is giving me the full length of travel compression and rebound. I love how it's set at the moment.

Thanks

- Pixel -

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RE: Lean Angle - Scraping Pegs - Help - 11/5/2006 3:16:07 PM

gixxereater

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Your pegs are far from touching in those pics. Probably not going as fast. On the track I would guess you are going a bit faster, which loads the susp that much harder and lowers everything. Otherwise, nice form. I will re read and post in a bit.......going riding now.

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RE: Lean Angle - Scraping Pegs - Help - 11/5/2006 5:02:47 PM

Jason748

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Well.....

First If you're on the track setting the sag at the mid point of travel is far too low. Your starting sag setting should be set so you have about 3/4 travel available, not 1/2. This will raise the bike up slightly. 1/2 works for street riding, even quick street riding, but when you get on the track the pace is so much faster you find real quick that the setup is very different from the street....

Second your body position is far too "upright". In those photos it looks like you have you butt far enough off but you upper body is way to upright. This causes you to bring your knee up and forward, requiring you to lean the bike over further that you need to. Ideally you should have your head close to the windscreen and off to one side, some say your head should be were your mirror is.

Kind of like this:
edit: deleted pic.......... Fret's pic is better.

The 929 has very low rearsets as stock, I would look into a aftermarket set (like Woodcraft or Vortex) as they typically move the pegs up and back give a significant increase in ground clearance.

< Message edited by Jason748 -- 11/6/2006 4:00:59 PM >

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RE: Lean Angle - Scraping Pegs - Help - 11/5/2006 11:13:49 PM

Fretless33

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jason748

Kind of like this:

No Dude...I would say this is a bit closer to what you want (hi Jason)

No, that's not me...it's a member of another forum, but is a great example of extreme lean angle and proper body position...he's a former California Superbike School instructor and Formula Forty Champion

I agree with the other replies and the first thing that came to mind for me was body position and suspension set up...first if you don't know how to set up your suspension, take your bike to someone who knows and if the parts are at their limits of adjustment, get better components, or get them re-worked! It can make a world of difference!!!

Second, your pictorial example of body position shows that you're waaaaaay to upright on the bike and your twisted on the seat...you want to move your whole body as a unit and have your head down as if you were looking through your mirror...this is why a track school will be beneficial, since it's very difficult to show or instruct over a message board...in other words, if you're planning more track time, get to a school...you won't regret it!

However, dragging hard parts is not a good or cool thing, it's not impressive lean angle since most experienced riders know that it's the prelude to a crash...be careful and work on that body position!

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RE: Lean Angle - Scraping Pegs - Help - 11/6/2006 9:55:52 AM

Jason748

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fretless33

No Dude...I would say this is a bit closer to what you want (hi Jason)

Yea, that's exactly what I'm talking about Fret, I just didn't have a better pic.....

, Damn Terry just has great body position in that pic.

I'll also recommended taking a good track school, and the more schools you take the better you'll get. They really help because they show you exactly what you're doing wrong and help you to fix it. instead of just blindly riding around at t track day.

< Message edited by Jason748 -- 11/6/2006 9:57:43 AM >

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60 Ducati 200SS - Fun
89 RM125 - Dirt

Thanks to my 2007 sponsors: Two Brothers Honda, Lithium Motorsports, LockhartPhillips TP, CBR600RR.com

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RE: Lean Angle - Scraping Pegs - Help - 11/6/2006 12:04:20 PM

Tahoe SC

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yes...you want positioning like fret's pictures...
i'm not sure who the trackies you talk to about positioning but if it's anything like that at the track...it's too upright, you look too tight and it's not very good positioning...aim for fret's pix...

suspension, with the speed at the track comes greater load on the suspension...and it's very likely very compressed...taking away how much lean you can have...i know you have it the way 'you like it' but that's not a proper set up.

work on the positioning and the suspension...and then bust some rearsets.

t

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RE: Lean Angle - Scraping Pegs - Help - 11/6/2006 12:49:46 PM

PitterF3

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Great advice above! I would definitely have someone knowledgable take a look at your suspension. I'm pretty much of a track newbie but one of the things I work on to get my upper body in position is to relax my outside arm. I try to drape it over the tank. There is a really good book about agressive street riding that translates to the track, Total Control (I forget the author but he was a racer). There is a whole chapter about body position and he stresses a relaxed outside arm. It works.

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RE: Lean Angle - Scraping Pegs - Help - 11/14/2006 9:59:31 PM

pixel 6

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kind of off topic... just testing how to put a pic on...

Here ya go Austy =)

Thumbnail Image

Attachment (1)

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RE: Lean Angle - Scraping Pegs - Help - 11/22/2006 3:09:55 PM

envirocbr

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Tell me, how do you practice in a parking lot?

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RE: Lean Angle - Scraping Pegs - Help - 11/27/2006 10:56:18 AM

Tahoe SC

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i don't do it but there are members of a local forum who do...
they set up cones...and work on positioning, braking, etc...

many of them have had their first keedragging experience at the parking lot...

how do i feel about it? it's great for a noob and what not, and great for the stopping drill, apexing, etc...but not for kneedragging.

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RE: Lean Angle - Scraping Pegs - Help - 11/27/2006 11:39:14 AM

Fretless33

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tahoe SC

i don't do it but there are members of a local forum who do...
they set up cones...and work on positioning, braking, etc...

many of them have had their first keedragging experience at the parking lot...

how do i feel about it? it's great for a noob and what not, and great for the stopping drill, apexing, etc...but not for kneedragging.

Just watch out for those painted lines...they're slippery as Hell, and visually inspect the parking lot for holes and debris before attempting...oh...and watch out for the police...some business owners get cranky about sportbikers dragging knee in their parking lots!

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RE: Lean Angle - Scraping Pegs - Help - 11/27/2006 6:18:54 PM

Tahoe SC

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i stay away...i personally think it's LAME...but i hate to sound opinionated but it's just LAME...why?
cause you tons of idiots sitting there running circles trying to get lower and lower each time until their pucks touch...or are way too focused on scraping knee...
then what happens when they hit the canyons or track? they can't do it cause it's all about fluidity and smoothness there...

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RE: Lean Angle - Scraping Pegs - Help - 11/27/2006 8:58:01 PM

pixel 6

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Yes, we set up cones. And yes, it was my first knee draging experience.

Anyone who thinks that furthering your knowledge and experience on a bike, no matter where it may be is a bit naive. I don't pretend to be joe racer because I was able to drag a knee in a parking lot. I don't pretend to be joe racer because that knowledge transfered over smoothely to a track.

The parking lot we practice in covers several acres. You could easially hit triple digets down any of the edges, so for scale, it's bit. It is also at an old Target that closed a few years ago. The local police have been by and watched our sessions. In talking with them, they were fine with it and applauded our desire to learn more about ourselves and our bikes in a more controlled enviornment rather than a few minutes away in our numerous mountain roads.

I'm not much of one for biting when somebody trolls... but some of the above comments irritate me.

Now that a bit of time has passed, I have made some adjustments to my suspension as suggested, and even tho I have yet to be back at the track since then, I do notice the differences in how it handles once over. I can definately say that even tho it felt good, my suspension was previously set too soft. I'm slowly getting the feel for how it handles now that I have reset the sag and compression dampening. So essentially I believe my question has been answered. Simply a suspension setup.

I also got some video while riding, and in slower frames, could see that my front suspension was bottoming out too easy... even tho I never felt it clunk so to speak.

Hopefully these adjustments will be noticable once I'm back on the track. I believe they will.

And I don't think I answered this before, but for my lean angle in the parking lot photo... yes I am upright too much, but none of those turns probably exceeded 40mph. When I'm on the track my body position is much closer to the tank, and for the most part my head is in the position that the above people said. The next time I hit the track (within December) I will get some videos and stills and post them up.

Till then, Thanks to those of you who had something productive to offer.

- Pixel -

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