For real (eperienced) racers only Please
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For real (eperienced) racers only Please - 12/17/2006 5:04:34 PM
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NotSoMellowYellow
Posts: 225
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Hey Guys, Been a long time I think it has actualy been about 6000 miles since I have been on here last. 31,700.00+ miles and she is still perring like a kitten. Well my question is and please if you don't know don't help. I am having trouble getting the bike leaned over, the rear feels slick and the front feels as if it is fading out from under me. This is not inexperience and it is not (Idon't believe) My imagination. I am going to start the track seen and I am wondering about this problem. I have been told my suspencion is not strong enough. I am 210-230 depending on what holiday it is and I have been told that new forks shocks bla bla bla....are the only waty to fix this issue. Anyone really know. I would like to just change springs and possibly different weight oil and not redo the whole shock if possible. getting racetech or another co. to set them up is 1,100 dollars and I don't want to wast that if there is another way or if I am just an idiot and can't ride as well a I thought.
Tahoe SC you race, if you are still on let me know. unfortunatly it has been almost a year since I have been on so if there are any other experienced trackers let me know your opinion.
By the way I have tried tires, tire pressures dampining, ext., currently have mich pilot powers with 300+ miles on them
< Message edited by NotSoMellowYellow -- 12/17/2006 5:05:56 PM >
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RE: For real (eperienced) racers only Please - 12/17/2006 6:22:53 PM
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abadfish
Posts: 771
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quote:
ORIGINAL: NotSoMellowYellow
I am having trouble getting the bike leaned over,
Define this.
quote:
This is not inexperience and it is not (Idon't believe) My imagination.
How do you know??? Can someone else ride your bike "as-is" and lean it over even further?? If so, then its you. To quote a track instructor I know, riding is 90% mental.
Now assuming it isn't something in your riding style....
quote:
the rear feels slick and the front feels as if it is fading out from under me.
quote:
I am going to start the track seen and I am wondering about this problem. I have been told my suspencion is not strong enough. I am 210-230 depending on what holiday it is and I have been told that new forks shocks bla bla bla....are the only waty to fix this issue. Anyone really know.
You don't need new forks per se. Just get your current internals upgraded for your weight. Do both springs AND valves. Don't skimp and just do springs.
quote:
I would like to just change springs and possibly different weight oil and not redo the whole shock if possible. getting racetech or another co. to set them up is 1,100 dollars and I don't want to wast that if there is another way
Are you talking about front and rear or just one side (front or rear). Though Race Tech is probably fine for the level of riding you are at, I think you can get a better bang for the buck. Personally, I wouldn't pay that much for a Race Tech setup (even if they're doing both springs and valves).
quote:
or if I am just an idiot and can't ride as well a I thought.
As said earlier riding is 90% mental. I'm not saying this is the case with you, but it is quite possible that you are not as good a rider as you think. Often many rider who think they are at a certain level are rudely awakened when they go to the track for the first time and realize they weren't as good as they thought.
quote:
Tahoe SC you race, if you are still on let me know.
Tahoe's a squid! 
You mentioned that you were going to the track soon. Here is my suggestion...
Though the stock suspension is likely not good for you (based on your weight), I would hold off until you first go to the track for two reasons: 1) it'll certainly help you find out if this is truly a problem with the bike and not with you and 2) it'll help you decide just how far you think you should take this suspension upgrade.
On the second point, if you think you'll be true track whore, then you may want to consider getting an aftermarket shock than just reworking your stock shock. You'd be much happier with an aftermarket shock but its really only worth it if you're going to truly push your bike.
As I mentioned earlier, I think you can do better than Race Tech and not break your bank. I highly recommend GP Suspension. He can rework your forks and shock. For the same amount of money, you'll get a better suspension. I was never really happy with Race Tech (though it is better than stock). I currently have my forks modified by GP Suspension and love them.
< Message edited by abadfish -- 12/17/2006 10:54:07 PM >
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RE: For real (eperienced) racers only Please - 12/17/2006 9:05:29 PM
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dballer324
CBRF Site Moderator
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wow that has got to be one of the largest replies i've ever seen!
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RE: For real (eperienced) racers only Please - 12/18/2006 1:29:12 AM
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NotSoMellowYellow
Posts: 225
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1) Getting it over, I feel as if I have to hang off the bike, way off when turning at speed. I am definatly not a novice but I have been timid to push the bike to hard. Due to the love I have for it, I couldn't bear dropping her just because I wanted to prove myself and show my balls. I hang off to get the weight further over because when the bike leans over it seems to loose traction and get very heavy on the inside. as if it is going to fall and it takes a lot of steering to get it to stand back up. The tires feel as if I am on slime in the back and it is just a mater of minutes before she goes out from under me.
2) in the front, I am counter steering and after a certain point instead of turning in the inteinded direction if seems as if it is actually going the other way.
3) no, one even sits on my bike without me on it. Yet I have seen others near the same weight and same bike (stock) doing a good deal better.
4) The front feels as it I were trying to corner on a choper, like the rake is set way out and the front is loosing traction, however they are set at factory settings.
5) I have toyed with seating possitions, where should you be in reference to the bike, I assume you need to be where the front is not comperessed and the forks are not closed, but not sitting as far back to open the forks up and rake them out either. (Like I said no race vocab so bear with me).
I have looked a pics and asked people and no one can really give me a straight answer other than ride and feel the bike. Well thats a load of crap been riding for 3 years or so and I am very good on the street and handle the bike rather well, it is almost a part of me until it comes to hard core turning. I am certain one track day would help solve some of this but I would like to have an Idea, and a direction to work towards before the summer.
6) any books out there, or can anyone draw a diagram of a rider on a bike and show me the center of gravity vs. angle of bike and where the line of balance should be across the frame or anything such as this.I have read many books but none go into this kind of detail. even close up pics of GP riders and arows pointing and saying what parts of body and bike should be doing would be good. and I don't mean look where you turn and all that, I mean head is far enough out so that bla bla bla, and weight on this foot, shoulders over here so that center of gravity is here and so on.
Hope some of this is understandable and you know what I am trying to ask thanks guys for any help.
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RE: For real (eperienced) racers only Please - 12/18/2006 2:38:23 AM
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abadfish
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#1, 2, and 4 above would indicate that your suspension is not right, especially if they are set to the factory settings. But #3 would indicate that there is something in your riding skills that is hindering you. Most likely its a combination of your suspension and riding skills but, as mentioned earlier, riding is 90% mental.
As far as #5 goes, your seat position will really have little to do with how your fork compresses. The things that really get your forks moving are braking and acceleration. The hard braking will compress the forks as the weight transfers from rear to front. Accelerating while you exit will move the forks the other way. This is why you need to be smooth with your riding inputs. Anything else and the suspension has a hard time doing what it needs to do.
quote:
ORIGINAL: NotSoMellowYellow
I have looked a pics and asked people and no one can really give me a straight answer other than ride and feel the bike.
The reason no one can give you a straight answer is because there is no straight answer. Body position is so subjective. Some will say you should get your torso off, get your spine parallel with the bike, kiss the mirror, blah, blah, blah. But then you look at pics of Mick Doohan and he does none of that crap. Or an even more extreme example is Mike Hailwood, who won several world championships back in the 60's with tires and suspension that are far worse than yours. And his a$$ never left the bike except to get off of it.
quote:
Well thats a load of crap been riding for 3 years or so and I am very good on the street and handle the bike rather well, it is almost a part of me until it comes to hard core turning.
Just a suggestion.....if you want to learn to do something better, be little humble and be willing to admit that you may not be as good as you think. After all, if you were as good as you think then you wouldn't be in the position you're in now. Being a good street rider does not necessarily equate to being a hard core track rider. As I mentioned earlier, many street riders get the rude awakening about their skills (or lack thereof) on their first trackday. Riding "hardcore" will consist of many cycles of unleaning what you believed to be correct in order to learn something new.
quote:
I am certain one track day would help solve some of this but I would like to have an Idea, and a direction to work towards before the summer.
I still think stand by my earlier suggestion that you hold off until you hit the track. While its likely the case that your stock suspension is not suitable for you, I think it would be more prudent to ride the track and see just how far you want to work your suspension. You could rework your stock stuff now but then if you decide to get an even more "hardcore" suspension, you would then be spending even more money.
I think you'd be better off using that time to objectively analyze your riding and make improvements (yeah, easier said than done ). The problem is that your in a real dangerous "place". The only safe place to really push the limits is the track. But the temptation to do it on the street will grow and eat at you. As crappy as this may sound, I suggest you wait til you get to the track to really start pushing. Now having said that, you don't have to go balls out to prepare you for the track. All of my rides in the twisties are nowhere near as fast as I go on the track. But still, I practice body position, visual skills, late braking (albeit at slow speeds), etc. for t
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RE: For real (eperienced) racers only Please - 12/18/2006 3:36:03 AM
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steve00ses
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my awakening is coming this spring. after reading all of this. i think you just need to trust a friend and let him test drive it. cause if the bike is as bad as you say it is..it would be easy for another good rider who knows what its suppose to feel like, to just tell ya...have you ever used these tires before? did it feel like this on the last set of tires? and when you look at the tire are you getting to the edge of the tire or does it have space where you never got the bike to lean too?
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RE: For real (eperienced) racers only Please - 12/18/2006 3:38:29 AM
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NotSoMellowYellow
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Well this is a big help. as far as suspension (stock) I would like to do whatever I can to get it to where I can push a little further , yes I am very aware of the street danger and I definatly don't over do it. I usually go to a remote clover where 2 highways meet, the traction is good and it is a well known place for bikers to go. some watch for trafic while others take the turns and visa versa, I'm in kansas, so this is the only turn in the state if ya know what I mean. any way the turns are smooth and they are constant so you get enough time to let the suspension settle and ease in and out of the turns, so upset suspension is not the problem. I am sure it is mostly me and the fear of falling, or scuffing my baby. What can I do to the suspension other than new parts. adjust the preload all the way down more dampning less dampning any tips on this would be welcome as well.
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RE: For real (eperienced) racers only Please - 12/18/2006 12:27:10 PM
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abadfish
Posts: 771
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quote:
ORIGINAL: steve00ses
and when you look at the tire are you getting to the edge of the tire or does it have space where you never got the bike to lean too?
Personally, I wouldn't use chicken strips as any frame of reference. Think about it.... you're trying to improve your body position. If you were successful, then you'd have less lean angle for any given turn at any given speed. This would only lead to bigger chicken strips. Then the only way you could get rid of them (with your newly found body position) would be to go faster. On the street, this is often unsafe!
FWIW, my street rubber has 1/8" (or so) of chicken strips on them (would you like extra bbq sauce with that ). My track rubber lost them in the first two laps.
quote:
ORIGINAL: NotSoMellowYellow
yes I am very aware of the street danger and I definatly don't over do it. I usually go to a remote clover where 2 highways meet, the traction is good and it is a well known place for bikers to go. some watch for trafic while others take the turns and visa versa, I'm in kansas, so this is the only turn in the state if ya know what I mean.
allow me to get on a soapbox...
that's a dangerous scenario, my friend. That's a time bomb counting down. There's very little room for error. Is that really worth the risk???? Yeah, Kansas is nothing but rolling hills with straight roads and 90 deg intersections. But the streets are not the track.
okay, off the soapbox.
quote:
any way the turns are smooth and they are constant so you get enough time to let the suspension settle and ease in and out of the turns, so upset suspension is not the problem.
I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion. It very much sounds like (at least in part) that you're suspension is not liking life right now.
quote:
I am sure it is mostly me and the fear of falling, or scuffing my baby.
That fear is what is going to prevent you from progressing. IMHO, that potential is always there, whether your trying to push the limits or just cruising down the street. You need to let that go.
quote:
What can I do to the suspension other than new parts. adjust the preload all the way down more dampning less dampning any tips on this would be welcome as well.
If you search the net (probably even this board), you'll find a bunch of guides explaining how to set up your suspension properly. I would try that first. The most important setting to get done is preload. If you don't get your preload set properly, the other settings aren't going to do you a whole lot of good and your suspension will always be deficient somewhere. If you can't get the preload set properly, that's a clear indication that the stock springs aren't stiff enough for you (a highly likely scenario unless you weigh about 140 lbs).
< Message edited by abadfish -- 12/18/2006 12:42:46 PM >
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RE: For real (eperienced) racers only Please - 12/18/2006 12:32:29 PM
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Tahoe SC
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i don't race...i just talk about racing at lot at starbucks...but since abad said riding is 90% mental...if i think i'm racing then i am!!!!!!!!! except for that 10%! woody races...i'm sure he can add lots.
i agree with abad...but i'll cut all the technical terms and go and make it plan and simple...
YOUR SUSPENSION SETTING IS JACKED! just not even talking about the stock spring rate and your weight, etc...but just the way you described...sounds like the bike is fighting you and it shouldn't feel like that! even if the suspension isn't suited for your weight, the very least you should do is adjust it as close to matching your weight as possible.
usually guys at the track will help you dial in your suspension for a small fee...like $20 or so...or someone with lots of experience will help you do it for free.
definitely hold off on suspension work...try dailing it in first...then ride and and see how if feels, then track it and when you start to scrap parts, etc...go for the suspension work.
t
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RE: For real (eperienced) racers only Please - 12/18/2006 6:03:08 PM
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NotSoMellowYellow
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As far a settings go I tried sport rider mag settings and they work fine on the road until I try to get giggy with it. Let me ask some more anoying questions here. Same question new perspective.
Why would the front tire trail outwards, or fade out from under the bike when in a steep turn too much counter steering? suspension to soft causing the bike to close the forks? Dampining not letting the forks rise back up and forks sink and stay compressed, or oposit staying out too far and to much rake causing the choper syndrome. I know it is probably a combo but there should be more of one of these things causing the problem so that I can start from there. right now I have rear at 5, 4 clicks out, and 2.5 turns out. front at 2 lines on the pre load 2.5 out on top and 2. 5 out on bottom.
I tried, in more and out more, on both rebound and compression of course as they went in more bike was very stif is this better for harder riding I would assume so because of high speed.
I am unsure how to describe the action of the bike but here it goes. If the bike were traveling straight and then you cornered it feels as if the front wants to keep going straight and the back doesnt want to swing around so that the front can dig into the pavement. For example if you were to draw a line in the turn exactly in the middle throughout the whole turn, Lets say your making a right turn in this case, the bike seems to want the front tire on the left side of the line and the rear tire wants to go to the right side of the line. Thus putting the ass end closer to the inside of the turn than the fron tire. I would think this should be oposite, where the rear tire is further out side than the front so that the front digs in and the rear trails a bit further outside than the front. Am I just completely wrong or what.
I am sure you guys think I am stupid for dragging this shtread out so long but I am willing to go all the way to the spool to figure out this riding mistery.
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RE: For real (eperienced) racers only Please - 12/18/2006 9:03:09 PM
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raptor
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please don't take this the wrong way .... but it really sounds like you are too afraid to lean the bike cos you think it will fall and get scratched,
you got to get past that, where you look is where the bike will turn, you have to look where the bike will exit the turn and the bike will follow.
do you find turning oneway easier than than the othe?
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RE: For real (eperienced) racers only Please - 12/18/2006 10:06:06 PM
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vipkat
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Save all this mental work for your first track day, you will walk away with a new perspective and there will be instructors that can actually SEE what you are doing not what you think you are doing wrong.
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RE: For real (eperienced) racers only Please - 12/18/2006 10:33:25 PM
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Jason748
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Ok, I've read over this a couple of times, to me (as a racer) it sound like 95% of your problem is mental, and 5% is suspension / set-up related.
The first thing I would recommend is purchasing three books:
1) Twist of the Wrist 2 by Keith Code - This book, even though old completely changed the way I ride. In fact I'm on my second copy as I read & re-read my first one so much it literately fell apart. I still to this day keep re-reading it after 10 years. But be warned it's a very hard read and you can only really absorb small amounts at a time. - Don't bother with Twist of the wrist 1, or soft science of racing, just get #2.
2) Total Control by Lee Parks - Good book
3) Sport Riding Techniques by Nick Ienatsch - Probably one of the best "recently written" books on the subject.
If you actually sit down and really read these with a open mind, these books will make you realize you know absolutely nothing about really riding a motorcycle, I know because that's what they made realize and I had been riding for on the street for 5 years, and in the dirt (including racing motocross) since I was 6, before I picked up Twist of the Wrist 2.
The second thing, while your suspension, more specifically the springs, are not right for your weight, they are more than up to the task at the pace you'll be running your first time out. I wouldn't recommend touching them until after you've done a least a couple of track days.
Here's the baseline setting I'd recommend - I raced on this (but adjusted for each different track) for a year with a COMPLETELY STOCK suspension. - But check your race sag...
Front: Pre-load = 1 line showing, compression = 1/2 turn out from max, rebound = 1 1/2 turns out from max
REAR: Pre-load = MAX, compression = 1 1/2 turns out from max, rebound = 1 turn out from max.
But if you must "have them done"- Have Ed at Trackside Engineering (Google for his website or PM me) re-work/re-spring your stock shock (about $300) - I race on one all last year, I guarantee it's every bit as good as a Elka or base model Penske. As for the Forks, he also can re-work the stock valves, shimstack and re-spring it for you for far less than a most charge to just to drop in a valve kit with springs. Or for a step above that give Ryan at Lithium Motorsports (again google it or PM me) a call. For less than $1000 buck he will modify and drop in Ohlins 20mm super sport internals, springs and valving to suit the 600RR (they have been racing the 600RR since 03, so they know how to set them up).
Third, Don't just go out and do a track-day, take an actual riding / racing class. If you don't you'll be out there practicing all the wrong things. I'm also assuming that since your in Kansas, you know about TackAddix track days right?
< Message edited by Jason748 -- 12/18/2006 10:36:06 PM >
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RE: For real (eperienced) racers only Please - 12/19/2006 2:38:06 AM
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Fretless33
Posts: 1007
Joined: 9/8/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: NotSoMellowYellow
1) Getting it over, I feel as if I have to hang off the bike, way off when turning at speed. I am definatly not a novice but I have been timid to push the bike to hard. Due to the love I have for it, I couldn't bear dropping her just because I wanted to prove myself and show my balls. I hang off to get the weight further over because when the bike leans over it seems to loose traction and get very heavy on the inside. as if it is going to fall and it takes a lot of steering to get it to stand back up. The tires feel as if I am on slime in the back and it is just a mater of minutes before she goes out from under me.
Dude...after reading this response it's pretty obvious it's hardly the bike's fault and you don't have the basic sport bike knowledge (or experience) it takes to operate them properly...then I agree with the others that your suspension isn't set up correctly.
Get those books Jason recommended and read them cover to cover multiple times (after 3 years, I'm shocked you haven't done this already) before getting to the track and keep doing what your doing...asking questions and by the time you get to the track, you'll have a good foundation and might just surprise yourself...or crash...
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RE: For real (eperienced) racers only Please - 12/19/2006 11:42:25 AM
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Fretless33
Posts: 1007
Joined: 9/8/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: NotSoMellowYellow
As far a settings go I tried sport rider mag settings and they work fine on the road until I try to get giggy with it. Let me ask some more anoying questions here. Same question new perspective.
Why would the front tire trail outwards, or fade out from under the bike when in a steep turn too much counter steering? suspension to soft causing the bike to close the forks? Dampining not letting the forks rise back up and forks sink and stay compressed, or oposit staying out too far and to much rake causing the choper syndrome. I know it is probably a combo but there should be more of one of these things causing the problem so that I can start from there. right now I have rear at 5, 4 clicks out, and 2.5 turns out. front at 2 lines on the pre load 2.5 out on top and 2. 5 out on bottom.
I tried, in more and out more, on both rebound and compression of course as they went in more bike was very stif is this better for harder riding I would assume so because of high speed.
I am unsure how to describe the action of the bike but here it goes. If the bike were traveling straight and then you cornered it feels as if the front wants to keep going straight and the back doesnt want to swing around so that the front can dig into the pavement. For example if you were to draw a line in the turn exactly in the middle throughout the whole turn, Lets say your making a right turn in this case, the bike seems to want the front tire on the left side of the line and the rear tire wants to go to the right side of the line. Thus putting the ass end closer to the inside of the turn than the fron tire. I would think this should be oposite, where the rear tire is further out side than the front so that the front digs in and the rear trails a bit further outside than the front. Am I just completely wrong or what.
I am sure you guys think I am stupid for dragging this shtread out so long but I am willing to go all the way to the spool to figure out this riding mistery.
Oh...my....God....I took the time to read this post and you really need to stop! Take some time to hone your growing abilities and consult with someone who knows what the fudge their doing with a suspension!!! You're tinkering, guessing and taking generic settings from magazines with absolutely no idea what you're doing, or the effects they're going to have! I'm sure after three years of this "guessing" technique, you have yourself trapped into some bad habits that are going to be very difficult to break once you get into the classroom!
I'm no expert with the suspension, but I know enough to have people who do know what they're doing help (or do it for me) set the bike up...focus more on your skills because as it reads in this thread, you could be a danger to yourself...especially when you try to get "giggy with it" at the track...
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