Re-Springing the Bike

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Re-Springing the Bike - 2/8/2007 3:06:26 PM    Jaybird180 Posts: 2659 Joined: 5/12/2006 Status: offline I talked with a suspension shop who recommended modifying my stock fork springs to work with my weight.  They say that I would only feel the difference between the modified spring (I think by cutting and rewinding) and an aftermarket spring in my wallet.  I read up on that somewhere but cannot remember the site.  What do you guys think?  They offer either a Hypercoil or Eibach for my rear.  Any opinions on that too? _____________________________ Track/Street 02'' F4i ZG Dbl Bbbl, Galfer SS Lines, PC3r, Muzzy s/o, NRC cover, ShiftMinder(WTF?), Speedbleeders, Vortex sliders, fenderless, GP Shift Ohlins, Racetech, Showa Suspension Don''t go in the forest if you don''t want to go to Granny' Post #: 1

RE: Re-Springing the Bike - 2/8/2007 3:36:29 PM    Tahoe SC Posts: 5874 Joined: 8/24/2005 Status: offline i'd get the right springs...ones suited to your weight...unless they can actually wound it to make it get the same spring rate as you need. as for rear...both are good...so it's which one's sticker you like better! _____________________________ Admit it...you love my siggy... "Let the ignorance die with the ignorant" - Tahoe SC bye bye F4i! (in reply to Jaybird180) Post #: 2

RE: Re-Springing the Bike - 2/8/2007 4:22:50 PM    Jaybird180 Posts: 2659 Joined: 5/12/2006 Status: offline They say the springs only set the ride height and it's the valve work that would make the difference in feel.  The say that I should keep the extra $50 bux in my pocket. _____________________________ Track/Street 02'' F4i ZG Dbl Bbbl, Galfer SS Lines, PC3r, Muzzy s/o, NRC cover, ShiftMinder(WTF?), Speedbleeders, Vortex sliders, fenderless, GP Shift Ohlins, Racetech, Showa Suspension Don''t go in the forest if you don''t want to go to Granny' (in reply to Tahoe SC) Post #: 3

RE: Re-Springing the Bike - 2/8/2007 5:43:09 PM    Triax   Posts: 1637 Joined: 8/22/2006 From: Nebraska Status: offline sounds iffy to me - get ohlins or race tek internal springs and revalve it while your at it. Do it right or don't do it at all you'll just start digging a hole for yourself. _____________________________ WWW.POWERSPORTSPRO.COM (in reply to Jaybird180) Post #: 4

RE: Re-Springing the Bike - 2/8/2007 6:13:14 PM    Tahoe SC Posts: 5874 Joined: 8/24/2005 Status: offline they are only partially true...for instance...say you can set ride height with your preload and all...if you had a lower spring rate, you would still bottom out...so it's like they're recommending that your suspension bugs be fixed via valving alone...and tweaking of the existing springs. if it's just $50 difference, then i'd opt for new springs...make sure you always ask for all your old parts back. _____________________________ Admit it...you love my siggy... "Let the ignorance die with the ignorant" - Tahoe SC bye bye F4i! (in reply to Triax) Post #: 5

RE: Re-Springing the Bike - 2/8/2007 11:05:38 PM    Jason748 Posts: 444 Joined: 10/22/2006 Status: offline Just my 2 cents, but if a shop tells you to modify your stock springs...run away, don't walk, run!  Modifiying springs in any way will actually damage them to a point.  Call and talk to some of the top suspension guys in the industry such as Dan @ Kyle racing, Mike @ Thermosman, Ed @ Trackside engineering, Stu @ PPS tuning, etc... and ask them what they think about modififying springs. The $50.00 extra for a quality sping that suits your weight will well worth the money. Also rember a well set-up stock suspesnion (correct springs & oil, but stock valving and everything else) is far, far better than a bad set-up high end suspesnion! _____________________________ 05 CBR600RR - RACE 98 Ducati 748S - Street & Track 60 Ducati 200SS - Fun 89 RM125 - Dirt Thanks to my 2007 sponsors: Two Brothers Honda, Lithium Motorsports, LockhartPhillips TP, CBR600RR.com (in reply to Tahoe SC) Post #: 6

RE: Re-Springing the Bike - 2/9/2007 11:13:37 AM    Jaybird180 Posts: 2659 Joined: 5/12/2006 Status: offline The shop is a Traxxion Dynamics dealer and RaceTech dealer.  They say they have machinery in house to make the valving and spring modifications and TEST the results.  They claim that Max @ Traxxion likes some of Phil's ideas.  Can I link to their site on here? I'm inclined to agree that an extra $50 is worth new springs versus modified stockers, but if I can save $$ on something that I'm not going to notice (so they say), then I should.  Heck I'm not sure I would notice the difference, I've never ridden a bike with aftermarket suspension. They said that if I were Expert class they would reccommend something different, but since I'm B class and plan to keep the bike about 2 years they say this is a GOOD compromise of cost vs performance.  They also said that if I raced the bike, the motor would be the weakest link against current model sportbikes, and the suspension would NOT be the weak link. I welcome comments from you guys.  Just trying to swim in a big pool with only info that I read and heard.  I have NO firsthand knowledge and not afraid to admit it. _____________________________ Track/Street 02'' F4i ZG Dbl Bbbl, Galfer SS Lines, PC3r, Muzzy s/o, NRC cover, ShiftMinder(WTF?), Speedbleeders, Vortex sliders, fenderless, GP Shift Ohlins, Racetech, Showa Suspension Don''t go in the forest if you don''t want to go to Granny' (in reply to Jason748) Post #: 7

RE: Re-Springing the Bike - 2/9/2007 11:40:34 AM    Tahoe SC Posts: 5874 Joined: 8/24/2005 Status: offline jay...i only have limited knowledge of suspension issues...i would email the guys that jason recommends or go on 13x forum and ask to see what they think. you can save 50 bucks elsewhere, such as valving...they can modify the stock components (port/drill) etc. to be much better than stock...and little things here and there. t _____________________________ Admit it...you love my siggy... "Let the ignorance die with the ignorant" - Tahoe SC bye bye F4i! (in reply to Jaybird180) Post #: 8

RE: Re-Springing the Bike - 2/9/2007 12:10:59 PM    abadfish Posts: 771 Joined: 6/26/2005 Status: offline Having gone through this several times, here's my 2 abe lincolns... though I'm no expert, the thought of modifying stock springs seems unnatural to me.  Don't go with Race Tech.  I like their stuff for dirt.  Their street stuff is better than stock but I think you can get better bang for the buck.  My recommendation for forks is to get stuff from GP Suspension.  You can send your forks to him or go to one of his authorized dealers.  (Though not quite an apples-to-apples comparsion) I have his stuff on my 600RR forks and its soooo much better than the RaceTech stuff on my F3.   For the rear, my preference is to do an aftermarket shock.  You'll get more adjustability and just a generally beefier shock.  If that's not in your budget, then getting the stock rear shock re-worked (both springs and valves, like your forks) is a cheaper option.  It'll be better than shock but not as good as an aftermarket shock (I've done both on my F3 and the aftermarket was so much better). < Message edited by abadfish -- 2/9/2007 12:12:20 PM > _____________________________ '05 600RR Purple/Black (in reply to Tahoe SC) Post #: 9

RE: Re-Springing the Bike - 2/9/2007 12:19:10 PM    Jaybird180 Posts: 2659 Joined: 5/12/2006 Status: offline The rear is taken care of.  I bought an Ohlins that I'm having resprung and the oil vacuumed and changed. As far as the front goes, they are porting and brazing the stock valves and using custom shim stack. I wish I could find that article on modifying springs.  It gave the pro/cons.  Frankly it's just a piece of steel.  If they cut and rewind, what's the big deal? _____________________________ Track/Street 02'' F4i ZG Dbl Bbbl, Galfer SS Lines, PC3r, Muzzy s/o, NRC cover, ShiftMinder(WTF?), Speedbleeders, Vortex sliders, fenderless, GP Shift Ohlins, Racetech, Showa Suspension Don''t go in the forest if you don''t want to go to Granny' (in reply to abadfish) Post #: 10

RE: Re-Springing the Bike - 2/9/2007 12:23:49 PM    Tahoe SC Posts: 5874 Joined: 8/24/2005 Status: offline the big deal is how it holds up overtime. springs made initially for one spring rate, then rewounded for another spring rate? just doesn't sound right to me. sort of like bending a piece of metal once and then again..it loses integrity. _____________________________ Admit it...you love my siggy... "Let the ignorance die with the ignorant" - Tahoe SC bye bye F4i! (in reply to Jaybird180) Post #: 11

RE: Re-Springing the Bike - 2/9/2007 2:21:57 PM    Triax   Posts: 1637 Joined: 8/22/2006 From: Nebraska Status: offline sounds like they are trying to take the hard way out and save you alittle money. If you drilling and rewinding old parts, whats the point, they have mileage and abuse on them. I'd shell out a few extra bucks and send your forks out to a shop that specializes in suspension like jaybird said. _____________________________ WWW.POWERSPORTSPRO.COM (in reply to Tahoe SC) Post #: 12

RE: Re-Springing the Bike - 2/9/2007 2:46:10 PM    Jason748 Posts: 444 Joined: 10/22/2006 Status: offline Jaybird, The more your talking about this place the more scared I'm getting for you... To expand on what Tahoe wrote: When a spring is cut or bent (not compressed, but actually bent) it actually changes the base material at a molecular level, making it harder and more brittle in that and the surrounding area.  This in turn changes the rate of the spring in the area that is was cut and rebent, so now the spring has multiple rates (but not progressive) and is much more likely to break and a unaltered spring.  If they don't have the CNC bending equipment, annealing furnace, shock/spring dyno (not just pressure tester an actual shock/spring dyno).  They don't have the correct equipment to modify springs. For an engineer’s point of view, the ONLY pro of "modifying" a stock spring is the cost, but to me the cost difference is NOT worth the danger and risk.  If you think about like this; say a year and a half from now, your going into a fast long corner (like the carousel at Road America), all of a sudden one of your spring brakes....your now skidding towards the hay bails and wall at over 80 mph, with your bike sliding right next you.... all of a sudden that $50 you saved, turned into $500 or more crash damage to your bike, gear and yourself. And there's a reason I didn't list Max, or Traxxion, but that's another story... Every one of the guys I listed is either a current or former AMA suspension tech, or factory suspension engineer.  They been doing this for years and years and they are the BEST at what they do (and yes GP suspensions is a great place as well).  They have the tools, equipment and the knowledge and experience to use them correctly (not just the "ideas").  I'm not saying get your stuff done by these guys, but when they give you advise I would listen to it very closely (like Dan @ Kyle racing loves to talk). _____________________________ 05 CBR600RR - RACE 98 Ducati 748S - Street & Track 60 Ducati 200SS - Fun 89 RM125 - Dirt Thanks to my 2007 sponsors: Two Brothers Honda, Lithium Motorsports, LockhartPhillips TP, CBR600RR.com (in reply to Tahoe SC) Post #: 13

RE: Re-Springing the Bike - 2/9/2007 3:01:22 PM    Jaybird180 Posts: 2659 Joined: 5/12/2006 Status: offline I agree with you on changing the spring at a molecular level.  I inquired about that when they proposed the idea.  They say that they have a lot of success with this method and they do have the equipment to do so.  The say that the stock spring is plenty long and actually high quality, as well as the valves.  Only problem is that the valves don't flow well, which is why they modify the stock componenets.  According to the lady I spoke with, the only advantage I'd get with say...Traxxion's AK-20 kit is the manufacturing tolerances are tighter.  However, there's no substitute for confidence in the equipment you're on, and I'm not hard up over $50 bucks. They are a suspension shop, and it appears that it's the only thing they do. _____________________________ Track/Street 02'' F4i ZG Dbl Bbbl, Galfer SS Lines, PC3r, Muzzy s/o, NRC cover, ShiftMinder(WTF?), Speedbleeders, Vortex sliders, fenderless, GP Shift Ohlins, Racetech, Showa Suspension Don''t go in the forest if you don''t want to go to Granny' (in reply to Jason748) Post #: 14

RE: Re-Springing the Bike - 2/9/2007 4:42:22 PM    Jason748 Posts: 444 Joined: 10/22/2006 Status: offline Don't get me wrong, I have zero problem with re-working the stock valves and changing the shim stack, hell thats what I'm racing on this year (but the stock valves in a F4i vs the 05/06 RR are a world of difference apart). It's just that why anyone would be even try and re-work the stock springs are beyond me. They are correct that the stock springs are good quality to start with but they could easily be made into junk.  Also I serousiouly doubt they thave the "correct" equipment to modify them, they may have some equipment that allows them to do it, but just not correctly. I say this becuase a CNC Spring bender, annealing furance and shock/spring dyno would run at or around a 1/2 million dollars together, used... To afford equipment like that they would have to be pushing a minium of $5 mil plus out the door every year. _____________________________ 05 CBR600RR - RACE 98 Ducati 748S - Street & Track 60 Ducati 200SS - Fun 89 RM125 - Dirt Thanks to my 2007 sponsors: Two Brothers Honda, Lithium Motorsports, LockhartPhillips TP, CBR600RR.com (in reply to Jaybird180) Post #: 15

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