RE: Not the carbs? 2nd gear sputter.
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RE: Not the carbs? 2nd gear sputter. - 7/19/2007 4:17:30 AM
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thecannibalchef
Posts: 218
Joined: 6/17/2007
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here's an idea. sell the bike as-is, get your money back from the shop and return all the parts you just bought, and use all the proceeds to buy a new 600rr.
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RE: Not the carbs? 2nd gear sputter. - 7/30/2007 7:16:24 AM
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almega
Posts: 145
Joined: 6/21/2007
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updates?
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RE: Not the carbs? 2nd gear sputter. - 8/1/2007 12:13:25 AM
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Jack Riddley
Posts: 58
Joined: 7/3/2007
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Thank you guys so much for all of your imput. I fixed the problem and I will give the best information I can give about how and why.
I owe a lot of thanks to Oceanside Motorcycle Supply in Oceanside, CA. Without their help I would have probably thrown a flare in the tank and walk away. Seriously, these mechanics and owners went way beyond what any shop would have or should have done. Their mechanics are top notch and I can't say enough. Here is what I found out to be the problem.
The air vent solenoid/Evap CAV solenoid (Direct Air Intake System D.A.I.) gets supplied fresh/ram air by a tube located in the front on the front fairing. It was missing the scoops that hold it in place. They fell down and was not getting ram air. This needs explaining.
The carb gets ram air from the airbox. It is air with pressure from the speed you travel. Meaning the faster you go the more air is forced in the airbox and then the carbs. Should be common sense right? Not as easy as it seems when you also have to supply the carbs with the same pressure in the bowls. I'll try to explain.
The ram air is forcing and creating different pressure from ambient air. The bowls and floats and jets need the same pressure (as the ram ) in the airbox/carb airhorn. A change in pressure, restricted air flow or introduced ambient pressure in the D.A.I. will cause the bowls to drain and not replenish with normal usuage. That is why I was able to get a good run through first gear but not get much faster in second, third etc. I was so concerned with the tac that I didn't notice it was speed that was causing this. It was starving for gas because of the difference of pressure in the D.A.I.
After a month here is what happened. I think I've tried everything. I trouble shot everything I could think of. I checked the fuel and all the components. I even swapped out the fuel pump relay just for the hell of it. (bet you didn't know the fuel pump had a relay. I didn't either). I checked the emissions. I closed off emission. I checked all the electrical. Yes, I rung out the whole system pretty much. Everything I could ring out except the CDI (computer). Instead of cheching that with heat and read out I replaced it with two different known good cdi's. I pretty much took every piece of suggestions given at this sight . Yes I did compression test too. 190,195,165,200. Almost did the valves for the hell of it. Pulse generator checked out too. You name it brother! Ignition relay R&R (remove and replace) Air solenoid R&R. Somebody make a suggestion because I'll bet you I already checked it. Anyway, It was a silly solution to major problem. I used two tie wraps to secure the hoses of the D.A.I. in direct ram air.
One important part I forgot to mention. I had finally got in touch with an important man in motorcycles. Curt Jordan of Jordan Engineering. He does not take people off the street. His main job is to write the manuals we use to fix our bikes. Pretty smart guy and very nice too. He hooked my bike up to the Dyno and found out my bike does 145mph+ with no problem. Also with the information was able to deduce that my bike was fine in a simulated road condition but no dice on road test. With the amount of unspent fuel on the dyno and the complete opposite on the road we were or should I say HE figured out it needed ram air to cause the problem. It was easy after that.
For those who have a simular problem and it feels like a carb problem please go through the norm with procedure. Check all and everything you can. Remember that disconnecting the air vent solenoid will not fix the problem. FYI, when the air vent solenoid goes out it will go out in the open position.
The carb needs the same air pressure as the main air intake. D.A.I.
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RE: Not the carbs? 2nd gear sputter. - 11/14/2007 11:32:00 PM
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Beksooh82
Posts: 39
Joined: 10/8/2007
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I was reading your problems and your solution. I have a simliar problem with my F3 right now. Driving at around 50 the bike cuts off and dies, once i try to turn it back on it will keep cranking but never turn over. I replaced the fuel pump, fuel filter, r/r, cleaned out the carbs and the idle jets and the problem still exists. I checked the electrical components and the battery is up to par and the alternator is fine as well. I'm wondering if it is something that simple. My front two tubes were disconnected, and i re-tied them onto the fairing with zip ties and connected the hoses all back together. Still the same problem, so i'm wondering is there a specific way the air tubes have to be arranged? I thought connecting the two independent nostrils to the main line would do the trick, yet it hasnt resolved the issue. Thank you for your write up, it was extremely detailed and specific. As of right now i'm very confused as to what the problem could be. it seems like a fuel problem, but my fuel components are clear. the fuel petcock, fuel filter and fuel pump and carbs are in working order. I cant help but think it is the RAM air, i did hear that under 12 mph the two front nostrils work, and over 12 mph it was the actual ram in the front of the airbox. i dont know if this is correct, but it makes sense that if there was air obstruction than that could lead to the problem. your response in this matter would be greatly appreciated.
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RE: Not the carbs? 2nd gear sputter. - 11/16/2007 4:42:47 PM
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Jack Riddley
Posts: 58
Joined: 7/3/2007
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The air system is very specific. If you have a California bike there is only a slight difference and that has to do with the emissions and the return line to from the evaporator tank. Those two breather tube work in the exact opposite of what you described. They are crucial to equalizing the forced airpressure and the pressure in the bowels of the carbs. Meaning as you go faster the ramair going into the trottlebody is increasing. So must the pressure in the bowls of the carb. Hence, the two breather tubes which go into the air solenoid then the bowls in the carbs. Do you have a manual? You can find a downloadable one on the site. Look up D.A.I. or direct air intake. Oh yeah, make sure that those two hoses are in the path of ram air and faced forward. Don't forget to check the air filters inline in the D.A.I. too. They have been known to cause the same problem. Keep me updated please.
JackRiddley
Ender
Rival Riderz
www.myspace.com/rivalriderz
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RE: Not the carbs? 2nd gear sputter. - 11/16/2007 4:51:13 PM
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Jack Riddley
Posts: 58
Joined: 7/3/2007
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I just reread your post. LISTEN TO ME!!!!!! You need to put those two hoses back the same way as they were. IN THE DIRECT AIR!!!! I will send you a pic if you don't know where they go. They need to both be in the direction of the intake. Both of them. Do NOT SCREW AROUND WITH THIS. I'm pretty certain (99%) that this will solve your problem. Check to see if the scoops that are mounted are attached. If you are missing them they can be bought but int the mean time you can zip tie them IN PLACE IN DIRECT AIR. Let me know. It's Sat soon and everyday is a good riding day but Sat is just a little bit better.
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RE: Not the carbs? 2nd gear sputter. - 11/20/2007 3:16:39 PM
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frankmackie
Posts: 113
Joined: 11/16/2006
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is this the same thing as the PAIR valve? (otherwise called the Air Injection Valve?)
thanks
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RE: Not the carbs? 2nd gear sputter. - 11/22/2007 1:36:58 PM
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Jack Riddley
Posts: 58
Joined: 7/3/2007
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No. Absolutely not. This is located in the front right side. What a Pair valve does is injects fresh air into the exhaust gases. It helps clean the exhaust or I should say reduces unused gases in the exhaust by introducing fresh air for what Honda describes as afterburn. The pair valve prevents the exhaust from escaping into the intake system and closes when decelerating. This is a California bike. Has to be. My suggestion is don’t mess with it.
_____________________________
Jack Riddley
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RE: Not the carbs? 2nd gear sputter. - 11/26/2007 10:00:35 AM
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frankmackie
Posts: 113
Joined: 11/16/2006
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thanks for your quick response Jack. I am going insane trying to fix this problem and nothing is working. do you have a pic of what air hose 'fell down' on your bike. i am having a hard time figuring out what hose you are talking about.
thanks!
you said this:
''The air vent solenoid/Evap CAV solenoid (Direct Air Intake System D.A.I.) gets supplied fresh/ram air by a tube located in the front on the front fairing. It was missing the scoops that hold it in place. They fell down and was not getting ram air. This needs explaining''
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RE: Not the carbs? 2nd gear sputter. - 11/26/2007 10:29:35 AM
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frankmackie
Posts: 113
Joined: 11/16/2006
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is this the hose your talkin about? where does the rear of it plug in? thanks
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RE: Not the carbs? 2nd gear sputter. - 11/26/2007 7:48:45 PM
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Jack Riddley
Posts: 58
Joined: 7/3/2007
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Yes it is. I sent you my phone number in case you want me to talk you through it. But yes those are them. They have to be in the direct air. Do you know where they are mounted? I wish I knew how to attach a pic. I forgot off the top of my head where the other circled vent goes. I'll have to look it up but give me a call.
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RE: Not the carbs? 2nd gear sputter. - 11/27/2007 10:57:07 AM
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frankmackie
Posts: 113
Joined: 11/16/2006
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thanks for the fast reply. i would like to talk to you if possible can you email your phone# to: seansepulveda@hotmail.com
I know the F3 is a bit different, but the idea is the same.
on my f4, i put the hoses back in place and it helped, but did not fix the problem entirely. i think it may have to do with aftermarket fairings not having any scoops to plug the two hoses into (although i dont think there were any on the stock one either)(i may fashion some myself) ----OR---- it may be that i have the hose connected wrong. There is an in-line filter that comes first, then it plugs into the air solenoid valve, which redirects are to the air box in different spots. (on the f3, it seems as if it runs directly into the air box on the back left side...judging by the photo of the hoses only)
the strange thing is i have another F4 in the garage with the same fairings and its owner (my step dad) LEFT OUT the hoses in front and it still works. i am thinking the valve may be faulty OR there may not be any power going to the solenoid when it needs it (ie.. it is stuck open/closed or something)... i think i will try to test the wire for power with a muli-meter or something.
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RE: Not the carbs? 2nd gear sputter. - 11/27/2007 4:26:16 PM
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Jack Riddley
Posts: 58
Joined: 7/3/2007
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the air solenoid when faulty stays in the open position. Meaning if it is bad you're still fine. I'll email you my number.
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RE: Not the carbs? 2nd gear sputter. - 11/29/2007 10:39:21 AM
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frankmackie
Posts: 113
Joined: 11/16/2006
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This is a reply i posted in another thread titled "600 shuts down on freeway"
http://www.cbrforum.com/m_428658/mpage_2/key_/tm.htm#438643
I thought i would post it here too since it is from the same problem:
Thank you so much for the help!
to answer some questions:
1. i dont really use/rely on starter fluid to start it up.. it doesnt really help anyway.
2. i have a keyless gas cap. when it starts to bog down, & i can tell it wants to shut down, it will stay alive briefly as long as its in gear. once the clutch is pulled in... it dies... 'thump'! dead. i have been coasting in nuetral at 40mph, and tried restarting while coasting (with open gas cap & closed) and it just turns and turns.
(it sputters as if too lean or too rich)
3. the fuel pump replacement was done to no avail. (i didnt think this was the problem, in my experience, pumps (at least on cars) dont slowly fail... they usually die with little to no warning.
4. I found a thread (linked on this page) that pointed me to the Air Solenoid Valve and fresh air needed to feed the Carb Barrels themselves. In short, the vacume tube that feeds this gives an equal amount of air in the barrels as the airbox so the mixture is even with the air pressure from the ram air ducts. The air that supplies this valve comes from a tube at the front of the bike near the air ducts.... mine was not installed because the aftermarket fairings didnt have the appropriate spot to mount them. (also, our other f4 left them out and his works fine... (mind you, no full exhuast or high flow air flilter on it)). i went ahead and modded my fairing and intalled the tubes with some success... it now only does this if i sustain high a speed of 60mph or more (it will hit 70 briefly but will die if i dont let off the throttle).
Update: i replaced this valve without perfroming the appropriate test so see if it was faulty (the test involves blowing in the intake hole with the ignition in off position and then in on position... air SHOULD pass through different hoses in each case. IT FAILED THE TEST WITH BOTH MY OLD & MY NEW (used) SOLENOID VALVE.... i.e. It is starved for air in the barrels.
I think this is my issue and am replacing the valve again (this time i will perform the test on the used one i have coming... and will buy new if that one fails).
THANKS AGAIN TO ALL FOR THE SUGGESTIONS! I FEEL I AM GETTING CLOSE AND WILL KEEP YOU POSTED> KEEP THE IDEAS COMING! THIS MAY STILL NOT FIX THE ISSUE! SPECIAL THANKS TO FORUM MEMBERS:
JACK RIDDLEY
BERGS
& DUFFERMAN
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RE: Not the carbs? 2nd gear sputter. - 11/29/2007 10:53:25 AM
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tomc1965
Posts: 238
Joined: 7/14/2007
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Sorry to get off track but I have a question for you.
quote:
Yes I did compression test too. 190,195,165,200.
Is that one cylinder low on compression??? Or is it still within specs?
Wouldn't a valve adjustment fix it?
_____________________________
1985 Suzuki GS550E first bike sold in 1991.
1995 Yamaha FZR1000 sold in 2000.
In February 2006 bought 2006 Kawasaki Concours.
July 25th, 2007 Bought a left over 2004 CBR1000RR4.
http://community.webshots.com/user/tigertom1965
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