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Starting trouble - Bad starter? - 9/9/2007 8:29:29 PM

MrEarbrass

Posts: 6
Joined: 9/9/2007
Status: offline

I have a '90 CBR 1000 that has always been a bit reluctant to start. Since spring I have replaced the battery, the plugs, the plug wires - I have removed and cleaned the carbs, synced the carbs, and adjusted the valves. All my effort has made the bike no more dependable. The bike runs fine once it has started. A little starter fluid will always do the trick, as will a bump start while coasting down a hill (sure would hate to push that beast up to the top for a second try!). Hot or cold dosen't seem to matter. Now in my opinion the starter has always turned a bit slow and seems to be getting slower (possibly too slow to start the bike?). Does this seem like a good guess and is there some way to isolate this as the cause of the problem besides buying a new one and giving it a try? Voltage at the battery is 12.5 and drops to 11.4 when the starter is turning if that means anything to one more experienced.

Thanks in advance for you advise.

Post #: 1

RE: Starting trouble - Bad starter? - 9/9/2007 9:23:09 PM

Trips

Posts: 763
Joined: 3/31/2005
From: Perth (Western Australia)
Status: offline

It sounds like your Starter Clutch and Alternator Damper are screwed. :(

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Post #: 2

RE: Starting trouble - Bad starter? - 9/10/2007 6:41:21 AM

MrEarbrass

Posts: 6
Joined: 9/9/2007
Status: offline

Thanks for the fast reply. I am curious what makes you think it is the starter clutch (splitting the case makes paying for a starter sound like a cakewalk). The motor always turns albeit slowly. Turns fast with no plugs. What does this clutch do and how does it work - I can't make heads nor tails from the shop manual schematics and what part would fail and slow the way the starter turns (bearings?)

By the way I pulled the starter and the brushes are all well within spec but turning the assembled starter was and is much more difficult than I would imagine an electric motor with no transmission. Is this normal? Tonight I will check for voltage leaks within the motor.

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Post #: 3

RE: Starting trouble - Bad starter? - 9/10/2007 8:38:00 AM

DRam

Posts: 352
Joined: 7/21/2005
Status: offline

My experience with starters is totally automotive, so take what is said here with a grain of salt. But - starter motors are harder to spin by hand than one would expect. That said, if your starter motor is really hard to spin by hand you may have bad bearings which could allow the armature to drag on its field windings. It can happen - see the attached picture of what I found when the alternator cover was pulled on my '91 1K. If you haven't checked bearings you might do so.

Other than a dragging armature slow turning is usually caused by poor electrical connections. You've checked the brushes and say they are good. Your battey has been replaced, so we can assume you cleaned and made sure the connections there were tight. Did you check the ground connection from your battery to the bike? Then check the wiring from your battery to the starter to be sure there are no poor connections, broken wires, shorts, etc. If all that checks out - bearings, wiring, etc. - you should have the armature and fields checked out. If you have a good enough multimeter and the specs you could do it yourself, otherwise a trip to a good mechanic is in order.

Like you, I'm not sure a bad starter clutch would cause slow starter opperation, but as said before, I'm no expert in that department of the CBR1000F. If your starter checks out good then that's an option to explore.

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Post #: 4

RE: Starting trouble - Bad starter? - 9/10/2007 4:52:51 PM

Trips

Posts: 763
Joined: 3/31/2005
From: Perth (Western Australia)
Status: offline

Yes a bad starter clutch and alternator damper slows the starter down.

The usual symptom is starter starts out normal for 1st few sec than slows down to a crawl, but will bump start perfectly.

Of course you need to go to the effort of ruling out battery, R/R, contacts etc 1st.

I have never figured out why the CBR acts the way it does with the starter :(

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Remember the light at the end of the tunnel may be an oncoming train!

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Post #: 5

RE: Starting trouble - Bad starter? - 9/11/2007 6:06:15 AM

collector

Posts: 459
Joined: 9/7/2006
From: Norwich UK
Status: offline

Another test to check this would be to put an battery supply to the starter directly and see if the problem persists.

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Post #: 6

RE: Starting trouble - Bad starter? - 9/11/2007 8:22:45 AM

DRam

Posts: 352
Joined: 7/21/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: collector

Another test to check this would be to put an battery supply to the starter directly and see if the problem persists.

Dang! I missed that step. Always was the first step after removing a starter and the last after rebuilding before putting it back in.

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Post #: 7

RE: Starting trouble - Bad starter? - 4/30/2008 10:30:42 AM

kaska

Posts: 36
Joined: 2/18/2007
From: Tallinn, Estonia
Status: offline

Hey!

It seems, that i have same symptoms

is it possible to remove the starter motor without taking of the whole engine?
I mean how much i have to take the bike apart to get the starter out with cluch and to chek it?

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Post #: 8

RE: Starting trouble - Bad starter? - 5/1/2008 5:29:43 PM

MrEarbrass

Posts: 6
Joined: 9/9/2007
Status: offline

First, the problem (on my bike anyway) is apparently the starter clutch or alternater damper, both of which ride on the alternator shaft. The starter motor itself does not have to be removed (that would be too easy). I have not preformed the surgery yet, but according to the manual, the motor needs to be pulled from the bike and the case split to do the job. Now I recieved an email from another member who went the "split the case" route to change the starter clutch, put his bike back together only to find the same symptoms. The problem was actually the damper. Not thrilled with the idea of pulling his freshly installed motor again he found that if you lay the bike on its side you can do the job with the motor in the bike. Evidently the reason for splitting the case is that there is a chain that goes over this same spindle and if you try to change it with the bike upright the chain just falls into the case never to be seen again. Laying the bike down keeps this from happening. One could only know this if one did the repair by the book the first time and was not getting paid by the hour to do it again. I am going to go this route later (the worst that can happen is I have to pull the engine to retrieve the chain). In the mean time I will continue to park the bike with its nose pointing down hill. If you beat me to the repair let me know how it goes! - Good luck!

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Post #: 9

RE: Starting trouble - Bad starter? - 5/3/2008 5:40:53 AM

kaska

Posts: 36
Joined: 2/18/2007
From: Tallinn, Estonia
Status: offline

well i took off the starter and disassambled it, cleaned and put together again, sama problem - so the starter is ok.
Problem probably lies in starter clutch witch doesent lock properly and so the clutch is slipping. I checked it by removing cylinder head cover and trying to run the engine with starter motor. It was kinda step behind. so it was a sign of slipping clutch.

I have heard that the clutch can be repleaced with the engine in frame. And it is done by alternator hole - one must be taken of of course. I have tryed to do it today, but stuck with some time problems so i have to put it together again and do it again next weekend and use the "mägistarter" ( downhill starter )

well trying to keep you up with what is happening with my bikes starting clutch:)

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Post #: 10

RE: Starting trouble - Bad starter? - 5/5/2008 8:14:34 AM

MrEarbrass

Posts: 6
Joined: 9/9/2007
Status: offline

Yes, I even went so far as to send my starter out to a rebuild shop to have it looked at - They said it tested fine.

Good luck with the starter clutch, keep me posted, I am going to Japan for a time, but hope to do mine when I come back. Any input would be appreciated.

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Post #: 11

RE: Starting trouble - Bad starter? - 5/5/2008 9:22:51 AM

GILL

Posts: 380
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: Halifax, Nova Scotia Canada
Status: offline

Some pictures too would be super-dooper :o)

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Post #: 12

RE: Starting trouble - Bad starter? - 5/5/2008 2:48:38 PM

kaska

Posts: 36
Joined: 2/18/2007
From: Tallinn, Estonia
Status: offline

I keep you updated, right now i am a little busy to fix the alternator cover and some work business, but probably this weekend i get so far to take out the starter clutch and yes i am still convinced that i can do it without taking the engine out from frame.

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Post #: 13

RE: Starting trouble - Bad starter? - 5/12/2008 1:51:09 AM

kaska

Posts: 36
Joined: 2/18/2007
From: Tallinn, Estonia
Status: offline

Well i have done it now. The starter clutch is fixed. For now at least:D And it cost few beers:)
Pictures are seen in here http://www.zone.ee/kaspar10/CBR/

Investigating the problem: To invetigate the problem i removed the camshaft cover and ran starter. On the pressure part the engine stalled, so there was seen that somewhere is slippy part.

Taking it out:

You don't need to take your engine apart nor does you need to take it out from frame. You just need to take off fuel tank, airbox and carbs. Then you see a little hatch ( seen on picture 6244 ) you open it and there is a little nut ( pic 6250) - it was 14mm i think
At same time you have removed alternator cover and you should see something like is seen on pic 6246. Then you remove tree bolts holding the alternator rotor coverand start removing the nut by same time holding the rotor for rotating ( a engine can be used to help holding , just put on a gear )when the nut is off you can start pulling off the rotor - DO NOT use much force! It comes out pretty easily and soon you should be see something like this - 6263. The starter clutch is seen on 6255 - but mine was ok.( The inside of starter clutch 6274, 6276 ) - The problem was in the damper - 6287, 6288. To get the damper out you need to take of the chain, be careful not to drop it in coz if you do you might still have to disasamble your engine :D

Finding the problem:

Well next i opened the damper and saw something like 6300 the problem was that some of the metal plates where wore out, So thats where the beers come along, as CBR 1000F is pretty common bike in my friendhood ( 5 of them) one had the same problem few years ago and he changed the damper but hold on the old one - which i took apart also and measuring plates and cleaning them i made one working one out of two. But on pic 6306 one can see wearing marks, and those where on both dampers so i could not awoid them.
And some wery bad plates 6315.

After that just assambly doing everything in backwards:) - And again Use torque wrench and DO NOT over power the nuts and bolts - because THEY WILL broke - belive me i know!

Anyway the bike starts like new now, but the oil is not staying in cos the alternator cover is still not correctly fixed - the cold weld did not work :( so my crusade is continuing :D

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Post #: 14

RE: Starting trouble - Bad starter? - 5/12/2008 4:52:43 AM

Shadow1

Posts: 1798
Joined: 12/21/2007
From: Pinetown, South Africa
Status: online

Thanks Kaska for an excellent report !!

This is I'm sure good news to many of the members with starter clutch problems.
It also showed me that I can remove my complete stator if I need to, without a complete engine-out stripdown- very good to know.
I have attached a couple of pictures of the stator cover that we spoke about, so if you want it. please let me know.....send me a PM with your address........it suffered no damage, and is good to go.