RE: Shifting with out the clutch.
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RE: Shifting with out the clutch. - 9/25/2007 7:56:33 PM
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*PHOENIX*
Posts: 78
Joined: 5/26/2006
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I'm interested in listening to what you have to say too.
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RE: Shifting with out the clutch. - 9/25/2007 11:03:05 PM
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JMart
Posts: 68
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Alrighty, well here it is.
So this thread has two main points that I will talk about. The first topic addressed in the post being clutchless shifting and the second being the transition gears 1st, Neutral, to 2nd. I will also include my input and experience with the topic. Enough said, onto the mumbo jumbo.
The transmission in our bikes is different from cars (except for a few exceptions, e.g. Ferrari). This is because a motorcycle runs a sequential gearbox. The main benefit of a sequential being 1.) Packaging – the ability to build it into the halves of the motor and 2.) Rider/Driver Ease – The bike can be shifted by the foot and both hands can remain on the bars. The reason a bike can be shifted up and down, as apposed to a “tree” where a hand shifter is needed, is due to the layout of the transmission and the gearing. A transmission in a car uses synchronizers (AKA synchros) to match the input and output gearing speeds to produce clean shifts. A motorcycle however uses dogs to perform this task. A dog is series of knuckles cast into the gear itself. You can look at the attached image for a better idea (the front face of gear 14 illustrates them nicely). By understanding more about the trans you can see the purpose of the dogs. Read below.
This might get a little in depth, but its basically how the trannys in our bikes work. Here goes:
The transmission consist of 3 main shafts. Your input shaft, output shaft and gearing shaft. The input shaft receives the power from the motor. The output shafts puts that power to your chain and hence, your rear wheel. The gearing shaft is controlled by your foot and determines the ratio of power output. The input and output shafts are always in contact via the teeth of gears ( 12 gears total and 6 per shaft, I think). But the gears have the ability to “free spin” or put no power down via the clutch and shifting forks. The shifting forks ride in twisting channels on the gearing shaft. By moving the gear lever with your foot, you turn a star shaped gear clockwise or counter clockwise (depending on an up or down shift). When that gear turns, the gearing shaft turns. This causes the shift forks to ride in that channel and index according to the selected gear. The forks slide the desired gear set up or down the input/output shafts. This motion causes certain gears to mesh and takes them out of free spin and puts them under torque. The gears are held, or sandwiched in place by both the shift forks and the DOGS. For instance, when you start your bike and then with the clutch in go from neutral to first you here that noticeable “click”. That noise is the action of the gear lever turning the star shaped gear, which turns the gearing shaft, which moves the forks, and “click” engages the dogs. The purpose of the clutch at this and any point is simply to take torque out of the equation (and to aid in launching from 1st obviously). By doing this, the dogs see no real levels of force/stress.
Now that you get it, hopefully, let’s talk about clutchless shifting. Let’s consider 2nd to 3rd shifting. I chose this because typically you won’t start clutchless shifting until this point. Shifting to 3rd from 2nd engages a new set of dogs on that gearing, but this time without the assistance of the clutch, the gears/dogs are still under torque. The dogs must mesh and engage for the shift to be completed and for the gear lever to move all the way up. Until that time, the gear lever will stay disengaged as the dogs hit off of one another as the forks apply pressure. Once the revs match, the dogs will slide into place, the lever will move, and you will be in 3rd. Sounds violent? Well not necessarily. If you roll off of the throttle, you will reduce/stop the increase in torque. This will make it easier on the dogs. Also, if you know the approximate speed/RPM that the dogs mesh at you can blip off the throttle and shi
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Hi-Mount Exhaust Work in Progress
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RE: Shifting with out the clutch. - 9/26/2007 9:15:37 AM
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KidCr3nshaw
Posts: 3688
Joined: 10/5/2006
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Well, there you have it! Very nice write up, knowledge of that kind is what makes places like this great.
I have said time and time again that it is pointless to clutchles shift unless you're really getting into the bike. ut I was riding last night and I thought...
What do I care about these oter guys' bikes? I don't! Do what you want/makes you feel, "cool." JMart, hopefully we can expect more input of this type in the future. You have certainly screwed yourself. Now that we know how knowledgeable you are, we will be expecting similar, page-long writeups!
Thanks again.
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1996 CBR 600F3
2002 CXR 400RR Supermoto wanna-be ;)
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RE: Shifting with out the clutch. - 9/26/2007 11:07:37 AM
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OC
Posts: 37
Joined: 9/15/2007
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Don't shift without the clutch from 1-2. Clutchless upshifts into gears 3-4-5-6 are ok. 1st and second have neutral between them and don't like clutchless upshifting.
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RE: Shifting with out the clutch. - 9/27/2007 10:45:44 AM
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Bumble Bee
Posts: 1323
Joined: 9/19/2007
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WOW! that was one hell of a write up-very good man. My bike does not pop out of gear, but sometime-not all the time when i am getting on it in first gear and shift to secound it goes in to N and i hate that. How hard is that shift kit to install and where can i get it at?
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RE: Shifting with out the clutch. - 9/27/2007 11:04:40 AM
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N8 Dawg
Posts: 1763
Joined: 7/18/2006
From: Middletown OH
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bumble Bee
WOW! that was one hell of a write up-very good man. My bike does not pop out of gear, but sometime-not all the time when i am getting on it in first gear and shift to secound it goes in to N and i hate that. How hard is that shift kit to install and where can i get it at?
Mine does the same, but min always does it anything over 8k rpms, my buddy laughed at me said I couldnt ride....so i let him ride it and he did the same thing....where you get the shift kit and how much?
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RE: Shifting with out the clutch. - 9/28/2007 9:54:39 PM
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wideopen954rr
Posts: 22
Joined: 9/25/2007
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shifting without using you clutch will not hurt your bike in any way as long as you have the rpms up high enough. your transmission will just slip right into gear
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RE: Shifting with out the clutch. - 2/12/2008 2:56:45 PM
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RR Man
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Joined: 2/11/2008
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The reason is for DOWN SHIFTING. I've been doing it for 30 years both on the street and on the track. It just saves ware on your clutch plates. If you are real worried about doing it, or you are racing competitivly on the track you can get an ignition advancer, or an air shifter, that way you won't even have to roll back on the throttle, you can then shift it at full power..Check out my Vid on myspace. Barney And The Rock. You will notice my hand only touches the clutch when I am down shifting, or starting out in 1st gear... Laters...
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RE: Shifting with out the clutch. - 2/12/2008 11:31:48 PM
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KidCr3nshaw
Posts: 3688
Joined: 10/5/2006
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You never gave a link!
Are you just reading through pages of threads or did you actually search up this old thing? It would be weird if you did, considering you don't seem to have a question about clutchless upshifting...
Welcome to the forums!
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1996 CBR 600F3
2002 CXR 400RR Supermoto wanna-be ;)
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RE: Shifting with out the clutch. - 3/7/2008 12:29:01 AM
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richhowerton
Posts: 432
Joined: 5/7/2007
From: chicago
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KidCr3nshaw
The biggest problem you'll run into from clutchless shifting is bent shift forks. Having a bent shift fork will make your bike seems as if it's falling out of 2nd and 3rd gear. In second, sometimes it'll fall into nuetral. Also, a bent fork will also cause you to miss shifts to second and third when you're accelerating hard.
It's not bad for the bike when it's done right, but it's also one of those things... unless you're racing there's really no advantage/disadvantage to it so it's kinda like, why bother?
The best advice is to just use your clutch.
+10000
On the street I do not see a reason to not use the clutch it will make the trans last much longer and have less prob. I have had to change out so many sets of shift forks because of this and they all want to know ? ? ? ? well how did I bend the fork? ? ?
the bike was made to have the stress taken off the fork before shifting IE clutch to make them last longer.
now if you are going to be racing I would plan on replacing the forks soon and when you do go to a higher quality fork.
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