RE: Corner fast ... don''t crash!

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RE: Corner fast ... don''t crash! - 6/9/2008 7:05:55 PM

thomasz

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Your product will become a better product in the market.

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Post #: 61

RE: Corner fast ... don''t crash! - 6/27/2008 8:00:01 PM

Rod38um

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Joined: 6/25/2008
Status: online

Thats a nice read.....thanks for posting...

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Post #: 62

RE: Corner fast ... don''''t crash! - 6/29/2008 11:55:24 PM

Juliet

Posts: 1798
Joined: 8/6/2007
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rod38um

Thats a nice read.....thanks for posting...

Thank you ... I am just happy if it helps anyone to ride better and safer :-)

Jules

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WARNING: THIS VEHICLE COUNTER-STEERS. ... READ THIS BEFORE YOU RIDE!!

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Post #: 63

RE: Corner fast ... don''t crash! - 8/7/2008 1:12:19 PM

stix818

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Joined: 8/7/2008
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Juliet, what are some ways to practice this technique? I live out in BFE and have plenty of open road for the most part. What are some drills I can do? New to the pavement world!!! Road dirt bikes all my life well most of anyways!!!

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RE: Corner fast ... don''''t crash! - 8/7/2008 1:43:49 PM

Juliet

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Status: online

I will reply to this in full tomorrow but its night here now and I am nearly asleep ...

Jules

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WARNING: THIS VEHICLE COUNTER-STEERS. ... READ THIS BEFORE YOU RIDE!!

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Post #: 65

RE: Corner fast ... don''''''''''''''''t crash! - 8/7/2008 2:23:19 PM

stix818

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Joined: 8/7/2008
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Roger that and thanks!!!!

< Message edited by stix818 -- 8/7/2008 3:17:56 PM >

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Post #: 66

RE: Corner fast ... don''''t crash! - 8/8/2008 1:22:48 AM

Juliet

Posts: 1798
Joined: 8/6/2007
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: stix818

Juliet, what are some ways to practice this technique? I live out in BFE and have plenty of open road for the most part. What are some drills I can do? New to the pavement world!!! Road dirt bikes all my life well most of anyways!!!

The fact you have plenty of open roads is a good thing ... we all do counter steering but most do it subconsciously, its those riders who do it consciously that make the best and safest riders out ther.e who are able to avoid accidents on bends.

If you are completely new to this phenomenon then the best thing to feel its effect are to go down one of these open roads when its quiet ... get the bike up to about 40mph and simply start swerving it from side to side ..try and really take in what you are doing ..analyse it ..you will find that by applying a force to the bars one way results in the bike kicking over the other way, ie applying a left turning force to the bars results in the bike kicking over to the right .. just alternatively push the bars first to the left and then the right and note how you are making the bike kick over from side to side .. these are small forces you are applying at this speed ..barely turning the bars at all ..its why I prefer to call it a torque force you are applying through the bars rather than an actual turn .. this all happens because of the gyroscopic effect of the front wheel ... spin a bicycle wheel up and hold the spindle between your fingers and try turning it left to right and watch/feel how the wheel reacts ..

So there we have the effect on an open straight road ...just play with this and enjoy it ..its awesome to a lot of riders when they first get the hang of it and feel its effects consciously for the first time ...

The next thing to practise is on actual bends ..try and find some nice quiet bends, not too tight at this stage ... lets say you are approaching a left hand bend at 50mph and you can keep this speed up through the bend too ... as you approach the bend and need to turn in you will apply a small right turning force through the bars or as some prefer to say a push on the left bar .. I tend to apply the force evenly between the two bars but each to their own .. as you apply this right turning force to the bars you will feel the bike lean over or kick over to the left ..once the bike is over you relax on the bars and let the bike track "naturally" through the bend ..if you were to keep the force applied the bike would just keep leaning over until it kissed the tarmac ... this is important ..you are only applying this right tuning force until the bike is suitably leaned and tracking in the bend ... of course all of the above actually happens very quickly .. the force is instantly translated into a left lean and then you are going through the bend in a relaxed and stable condition ...

To come back upright after the bend you will now apply a left turning force through the bars (or a push on the right bar) which will kick the bike back upright again ...

Apart from practising all this until the cows come home and everytime you ride the next best thing to consider is obstacle avoidance ..in fact this is what its all about really ..yes being able to consciously counter steer a bike will get you through the bends faster and safer but avoiding collisions is the ticket here ..

This is easier if you have someone to help and make sure its quiet too ... have someone scrunch up some paper and place it in the middle of the lane on the bend you are approaching .. the trick is to go into the bend and find this paper right in your pathway and pretend its a brick or some other heavy object that could unseat you or cause you to crash ... so you are leaned into the bend and the bike is tracking through it when suddenly you need to steer around this obstacle ..most riders get target fixation and just simply hit it ... others dont know what to do because they leaned into that bend by subconscious counter steering instead of conscious counter steering .. so they tend to hit the object too .. the ones who understand counter steering and are confident with it simply steer around the object ..either by leaning the bike over further to go tighter or standing the bike up more to go wider .. ie going either side of the object depending on whats best ...

Again once in bends you can practise all this by looking at marks etc in the road and imaging they are objects you must steer around ...

The fun part of conter steering is in a set of repeating tight S bends ..we have a wonderful set not far from me ..I must video them next time I get out there on the bike and load it up here ... this is wher.e the bike is leaned over one way but then you have to pick it up over centre and lean it back down the other side and then back again ..literally flipping the bike one way, then the other ..never is counter steering more prevalent than when doing this .literally torqueing the bars one way and then the other way as the bike simply dances its way through the bends :-)

Jules

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WARNING: THIS VEHICLE COUNTER-STEERS. ... READ THIS BEFORE YOU RIDE!!

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Post #: 67

RE: Corner fast ... don''''''''t crash! - 8/8/2008 10:36:29 AM

stix818

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Having problems posting!!!

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RE: Corner fast ... don''''''''''''''''t crash! - 8/8/2008 12:45:31 PM

stix818

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Joined: 8/7/2008
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Ah finally!!! Anyways thanks for the info everyone. It''s funny how I read this forum and then went home for a hot lap around town and noticed everything you guys mentioned!!! I started doing some practice and hit a couple corners around 50mph. I would get in the corner pick my line and then make adjustments and move to different lines whil.e in the corner. I thought this was good practice. They were only big sweeping corners but regardless I was able to make the bike do what I wanted!!!

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RE: Corner fast ... dont crash! - 8/8/2008 1:43:19 PM

Juliet

Posts: 1798
Joined: 8/6/2007
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: stix818

Ah finally!!! Anyways thanks for the info everyone. It''''s funny how I read this forum and then went home for a hot lap around town and noticed everything you guys mentioned!!! I started doing some practice and hit a couple corners around 50mph. I would get in the corner pick my line and then make adjustments and move to different lines whil.e in the corner. I thought this was good practice. They were only big sweeping corners but regardless I was able to make the bike do what I wanted!!!

That is great to hear!! :-) .. making the bike do what you want is what this is all about ..

Jules

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WARNING: THIS VEHICLE COUNTER-STEERS. ... READ THIS BEFORE YOU RIDE!!

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Post #: 70

RE: Corner fast ... dont crash! - 8/8/2008 2:41:50 PM

jennafer42

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Joined: 7/16/2008
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I just thought it interesting that in my MSF class they only tell you "Slow, Press, and Roll on the throttle" to go around the corner. I thought, "Press what way? What am I pressing? Am I pressing?" lol. no actual explanation of counter steering though...

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Post #: 71

RE: Corner fast ... dont crash! - 8/9/2008 6:42:06 AM

Juliet

Posts: 1798
Joined: 8/6/2007
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: jennafer42

I just thought it interesting that in my MSF class they only tell you "Slow, Press, and Roll on the throttle" to go around the corner. I thought, "Press what way? What am I pressing? Am I pressing?" lol. no actual explanation of counter steering though...

I am wondering if they mean push here?? ..some people describe counter steering as push left to go left and push right to go right ..ie push on the left bar to go left ... it all amounts to the same thing really, you are simply applying an opposite force to the bars to that which you want the bike to go ... again I must repeat here that this opposite force is only applied to initially get the bike leaning over in the bend, once over you let the bike track naturally through the bend with a neutral hold on the bars.

If you set up a pointer system it admirably demonstrates that the bike is in fact tracking through the bend as the pointers become offset from each other showing that the bike is actually turning into the bend ...

Jules

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WARNING: THIS VEHICLE COUNTER-STEERS. ... READ THIS BEFORE YOU RIDE!!

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Post #: 72

RE: Corner fast ... don''t crash! - 8/17/2008 9:43:34 AM

Dream Seller

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Joined: 8/17/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: woo545

This is something, that if you watch the races on TV...you will see the front of the racers turn in the opposite direction of the turn.....

Here are a few videos that back up Juliet''s post.

The Mordeth13 version:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8IdTq3_3WI

Countersteering 101 1.1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C848R9xWrjc

Slow Speed Countersteering
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLzB5oriblk

Midspeed Countersteering
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1A7o-aXvqU

I would like to also add...it is best that you do all of your braking BEFORE entering the turn and try to avoid any sort of hard braking while in the turn. Brake too hard while in a turnwill cause the lose of traction and you becoming intimately friendly with the asphalt.

The instructors I had in my MSF were great on teaching this method. Though I heard that someone in another MSF class at a different location specifically told the riders NOT to use this method, but instead to push the handlebar to the ground...this is wrong. What Jules is describing is dead-on.

EDIT: Forgot to add the Queen''s English....Blimey!

I''m brand new to motorcycles. I have just completed the MSF course and they too told us to "press" the bars. Press right go right press left go left. Whats the difference if we press,push or torque the bars? Don''t they all give off the same reaction?

this whole write up is greatly appreciated Juliet.

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Post #: 73

RE: Corner fast ... don''''t crash! - 8/17/2008 10:32:34 AM

Juliet

Posts: 1798
Joined: 8/6/2007
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dream Seller

Im brand new to motorcycles. I have just completed the MSF course and they too told us to "press" the bars. Press right go right press left go left. Whats the difference if we press,push or torque the bars? Don''''t they all give off the same reaction?

this whole write up is greatly appreciated Juliet.

Thank you, I am really glad people are getting something out of this!! :-) ... it all describes the same thing ..push or press the left bar to go left ..push or press the right bar to go right ... I prefer "push" as it seems somewhat clearer to say push on the bar ... so yes push, press or torque its all the same thing ... I actually tend to "torque" both bars evenly when I counter steer, remember too that you are only torqueing the bars enough to get the desired kick over or lean angle ... once over you have a neutral hold on the bars just as when riding upright .. that is until you wish to come back upright or maybe lean over further ..

Jules

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WARNING: THIS VEHICLE COUNTER-STEERS. ... READ THIS BEFORE YOU RIDE!!

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Post #: 74

RE: Corner fast ... don''''''''t crash! - 8/18/2008 10:51:43 AM

02cbrf4i4u

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Just drag knees and go really fast with yours eyes closed! Works for me

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Post #: 75