Corner fast ... don't crash! (Important update page 4 .. body steer)
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Corner fast ... don't crash! (Important update page 4 .... - 3/26/2008 6:45:22 AM
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Juliet
Posts: 1698
Joined: 8/6/2007
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Hello guys,
I am writing this post because I've seen so many crashing posts and you guys expressing all these fears that I thought we needed something positive to help us all ride better ...
(mods feel free to make this a sticky if you want - I just think this stuff is REALLY important and can save lives and needs to stay)
Also if you know this stuff already please don't be insulted, some newbies and some bikers who should know it .. actually don't! That's Scary!
I am talking about counter steering ... my dad told me when I was 16 that I could have a bike so long as I let him teach me how to ride properly .. this is the one thing he taught me that has really been simply the best thing.
So without further delay let's get started :-) ...
When asked how a bike corners a lot of people say a rather vague "well you just kinda lean it over mate" ... well that's hardly a comprehensive answer is it, it may be what happens as a result of counter steering but it's not how a bike corners...
One more thing .. you already do counter steering by instinct, you do it subconsciously .. everyone can ride a bike, yes?
When you consciously counter steer then the effects are awesome :-) ...
Counter steering is using the gyroscopic effect of the front wheel to make a bike lean into turns ... try it on a perfectly straight clear road ... as you go along, apply a slight torque on the bars to the right, the bike will kick over to the left and vice versa...
At very slow speeds we steer a motorcycle by turning the handlebar in the direction we wish to go. We can only do that at speeds of less than about 5 - 10 MPH. At any higher speed we do the exact opposite, whether we realize it or not.
For example... assuming we want to turn to the right, we actually TRY to turn the handlebar left.
This results in the front wheel leaning to the right and, as a result of the lean of the wheel, a turn to the right.
This is counter-steering.
If you are familiar with a gyroscope then it's easy to understand counter-steering - at least to understand how it starts to work.
The phenomenon is called Gyroscopic Precession.
This is what happens ... when a lateral force is applied to the axis of a spinning gyroscope. The spinning gyroscope translates the force vector ninety degrees off the direction of spin. Thus, if we try to turn our front wheel to the left, the force we use appears as a lateral force forward against the axle on the right side and this is translated into a force that tries to lean the wheel to the right.
Similarly, trying to turn the wheel to the right results in the wheel trying to lean to the left. On a bike your handlebar input is immediately translated by gyroscopic precession into a lean in the opposite direction. Since your front wheel is attached to the bike's frame, the body of the bike also attempts to lean. It is the lean of the BIKE that overwhelms the handlebar effort and drags the front wheel over with it - gyroscopic precession merely starts the process and soon becomes inconsequential in the outcome.
One more thing to realise and I have proved this to myself by setting up pointers ... one on my steering head, the other on my frame... once you have the bike leaning over from the initial counter steer then the bike naturally tracks with the bend, the pointers will indeed show that the bike is now steering through the bed, they will be offset, it's only slight..especially on a long sweeper but it's there ...
Try it yourself :-)
BE SAFE!
Jules
< Message edited by Juliet -- 5/26/2008 9:04:23 AM >
_____________________________
WARNING: THIS VEHICLE COUNTER-STEERS. ... READ THIS BEFORE YOU RIDE!!
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RE: Corner fast ... don't crash! - 3/26/2008 7:15:30 AM
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woo545
Posts: 1505
Joined: 6/3/2007
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This is something, that if you watch the races on TV...you will see the front of the racers turn in the opposite direction of the turn.....
Here are a few videos that back up Juliet's post.
The Mordeth13 version:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8IdTq3_3WI
Countersteering 101 1.1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C848R9xWrjc
Slow Speed Countersteering
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLzB5oriblk
Midspeed Countersteering
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1A7o-aXvqU
I would like to also add...it is best that you do all of your braking BEFORE entering the turn and try to avoid any sort of hard braking while in the turn. Brake too hard while in a turnwill cause the lose of traction and you becoming intimately friendly with the asphalt.
The instructors I had in my MSF were great on teaching this method. Though I heard that someone in another MSF class at a different location specifically told the riders NOT to use this method, but instead to push the handlebar to the ground...this is wrong. What Jules is describing is dead-on.
EDIT: Forgot to add the Queen's English....Blimey!
< Message edited by woo545 -- 3/26/2008 7:32:19 AM >
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RE: Corner fast ... don't crash! - 3/26/2008 7:28:16 AM
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Juliet
Posts: 1698
Joined: 8/6/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: woo545
What Jules is describing is dead-on.
Thank you Nick :-) my dad wouldn't let me loose until I had all this stuff totally handled ...
The main danger of counter steering sub conscioulsy is that when it goes wrong you're not sure what to do ...
For instance ...
You are entering a fast sweeper to the left ... you torque the bars gently to the right ... the bike drops over to the left then you relax and let the bike track through the bend ... suddenly you see a large object in the road that will unseat you and cause a crash ... without being consciously aware of counter steering some things will happen ..
You will get "target fixation" and hit the object ...not nice!
You will instictively know what to do but it's 50/50 .. not the best!
OR
You will consciously counter steer the bike to kick the bike further over and do a tighter turn or counter steer to lift the bike higher to straighten up somewhat ... this way you consciously avoid the object and don't leave it to chance because you KNOW exactly what to do ... ie you ride the bike around the obstacle ...
Now go and play with a gyroscope ... they demonstrate the precession thing perfectly at the comfort of your desk ....
Jules
< Message edited by Juliet -- 3/26/2008 9:09:22 AM >
_____________________________
WARNING: THIS VEHICLE COUNTER-STEERS. ... READ THIS BEFORE YOU RIDE!!
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RE: Corner fast ... don't crash! - 3/26/2008 9:29:20 AM
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eweppley
Posts: 463
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And watch out for that "devil dirt" in the northern US! I'll get you every time!....
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RE: Corner fast ... don't crash! - 3/26/2008 9:49:11 AM
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woo545
Posts: 1505
Joined: 6/3/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: eweppley
And watch out for that "devil dirt" in the northern US! I'll get you every time!....
"devil dirt" Explain?
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RE: Corner fast ... don't crash! - 3/26/2008 10:10:24 AM
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eweppley
Posts: 463
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That's all the anti-skid ("sure-to-skid" to motorcyclists) material that the state DOTs threw around this year. Here in PA it's everywhere and its lurking around every bend in the road. PA roads are sh1t to begin with, but having these mini ball bearings around are a nightmare. You should know all about this woo.....aren't you a PA boy as well?
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RE: Corner fast ... don't crash! - 3/26/2008 10:41:33 AM
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woo545
Posts: 1505
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AHHH now I know what you are referring to...the crap is all over the top of my street which is on a blind curve...
It's like turning on marbles.
< Message edited by woo545 -- 3/26/2008 10:47:48 AM >
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RE: Corner fast ... don't crash! - 3/26/2008 10:51:43 AM
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Juliet
Posts: 1698
Joined: 8/6/2007
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I'm lucky the roads around me are race track quality and you can really use the counter steering thing on good fast bends ... I can literally make my bike dance ... it's so much fun! :-)
Jules
_____________________________
WARNING: THIS VEHICLE COUNTER-STEERS. ... READ THIS BEFORE YOU RIDE!!
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RE: Corner fast ... don't crash! - 3/26/2008 11:05:35 AM
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woo545
Posts: 1505
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Didn't know you were a "fast" girl.
< Message edited by woo545 -- 3/26/2008 2:11:30 PM >
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RE: Corner fast ... don't crash! - 3/26/2008 12:01:29 PM
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Flogger
Posts: 201
Joined: 5/6/2007
From: Essex, England
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Eweppley, unfortunately we have a similiar type of stuff being used in the south of England. It takes a few weeks to settle in. People have been killed (on bikes) but they still insist on using this cheaper method here.
Juliet, I think you have been taking too much Night Nurse or something. Make your bike dance? Are you sure?!!! Doesn't it always rain "up north"??
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RE: Corner fast ... don't crash! - 3/26/2008 12:47:04 PM
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Juliet
Posts: 1698
Joined: 8/6/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Flogger
Juliet, I think you have been taking too much Night Nurse or something. Make your bike dance? Are you sure?!!! Doesn't it always rain "up north"??
I love to dance with my bike Phil, trust me when you torque the bars just right through the tight S bends here you can make an F3 dance ;-)
As for rain ... I'm not in Scotland or Manchester you know ... lol ...barley half way up the UK if you look ... it's been beautiful here today, sunny all day ... have you had the same? :-)
Jules
< Message edited by Juliet -- 3/26/2008 12:57:13 PM >
_____________________________
WARNING: THIS VEHICLE COUNTER-STEERS. ... READ THIS BEFORE YOU RIDE!!
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RE: Corner fast ... don't crash! - 3/26/2008 12:56:50 PM
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Flogger
Posts: 201
Joined: 5/6/2007
From: Essex, England
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 We have had rain all winter here... my commuting has been very wet. The snow has now cleared and it's been pouring down all day! Heavy rain forecast for the next 5 days!!!! where is that venting thread..
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